Cabri G2 Mustering?

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
ChicoCheco
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby ChicoCheco » Tue Mar 10 2015, 01:02

No, apologies if I discuss pros and cons of a machine.
I shouldn't have posted to thread that relates to G2, but asks about mustering.
I let those who may consider it or fly R22 mustering, make more informed opinion, especially if they haven't seen G2 in Europe, NZ or themselves at least in Bankstown @ HTT.

I never flew mustering nor worked on station.

What I did write was either what I am told by G2 owner/instructor, read from available resources, OR, heavens wonders, experienced seeing/flying myself first hand.

Maybe I should have linked photo of myself & G2 instead of one from promo shoot, to make it more 'palatable'. Already removed.

If my enthusiasm and looking at things from another angle or responding to posed potential issues DIRECTLY IMPLIES I know it all, well, at least I know to write less to avoid annoying the stalwarts of B/S forum & industry with my silly stuff.
I don't do hiring, firing, buying, anywhere. Those who would ever consider Cabri would do their further research and contact local dealer anyway.
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rotors99
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby rotors99 » Tue Oct 29 2019, 03:54

Wakey...Wakey...thread alarm bell goes off :shock:

Morning Fellas

Any operators out there using the G2 for mustering yet? If so, how's the fenestron handling the dust?

Cheers
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby Chook1977 » Sat May 2 2020, 10:43

Just to start off with, I don't do mustering but I am seriously looking at it.

Like most people here in Australia I have done my CPL(H) on the R22 and I found the 22 to be a great machine. Simple in design and a true pilots aircraft hence you really have to fly it, there is no pilot aids or systems. But if you don't respect it, it will have no dramas in killing you flying outside the pilots or aircrafts envelop.

Then I went to NZ and got type rated on the G2 due to Robinson's have a bad rep over there mainly due to the rotor head in high winds and gusts from the fickle weather and eddies and mountain waves produced the unavoidable mountain range.

I will have to say it will be very hard to step back into a robie after that. The safety features and the performance of the G2 make the R22 look like an old clapper that it is really showing it's age in comparison and the handling is exceptional. Everything a robie can do the G2 can do and a lot better in my opinion. The shrouded tail rotor has no LTE and is protected. Yes at first the peddle inputs seem longer in travel but once you get use to it, there is no difference. I also found that you fly more on the peddles then the robie but after a three hour type rating it's second nature. I also had no problems with remembering which peddle to press in autos with the blades spinning the opposite way. Infact the blades are weighted at the tips which gives more time, less prone to droop and better control in the autos. The fully articulated rotor head gets rid of the robie Achilles heel. And the feature that the industry should be focusing on is the survivability of the pilot in a high impact landing in this aircraft since you operate in the dead mans zone all day everyday. As standard the cabin features two high-energy absorbing stroking seats. A pilot and passenger will survive a crash at a 2000fpm rate of decent. So even if they completely botch the auto, there is a better chance of walking away from it.

There are so many other awesome things about it, but to summarise. The R22 is a 20th century helicopter that has not evolved however the G2 is a 21st century helicopter that may be more expensive to buy but cheaper to run.

Christchurch helicopters is the Australian and NZ wholesaler for the Cabri G2. If you speak with a Kevin Walsh there he will make your ears bleed with all of the differences and features but just get in one and take it for a spin if you get the opportunity, trust me you will be impressed.
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Evil Twin
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby Evil Twin » Sun May 3 2020, 01:58

Pedal
AS350Driver
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby AS350Driver » Sun May 3 2020, 02:56

The above chap said that the Cabrini fenestron cannot get LTE.


https://youtu.be/xBaId3oe_bk
tinman
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby tinman » Sun May 3 2020, 03:08

The student pilot, who was flying solo


Legend has it the CFI still wants more right rudder. Though I have to say it does look violent.
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Eric Hunt
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby Eric Hunt » Sun May 3 2020, 05:32

The above chap said that the Cabrini fenestron cannot get LTE.


And he was right.

What you saw was not the mythical LTE, though in the case of this 65-hr pilot, it could have been Lack of Training and Experience. Approaching a hover, coming out of translational lift, needs some more power pedal. in the case of a Cabri, right pedal, to stop the nose going left. He also had a wind from the left, helping to weathercock the nose as well. And he didn't stop it.

"LTE" exists in the minds of the feeble and those looking for an excuse. Go to the site that sounds like pea proon and gurgle up Nick Lappos and the helicopter urban myths. For those unfamiliar with Nick, he flew Bell choppers in Vietnam before becoming Sikorsky's chief test pilot and the "father" of the S76. He was very much down on the term LTE, which he showed was Bell "spin" to cover for the inordinate number of accidents caused by the early models of the B206 with the small tail rotor. Bell asked him to come back to the firm to fix their problems. He is now retired.
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby godfather007 » Sun May 3 2020, 09:09

Oh $hit!
Here we go again.
Keep in mind a few things.
Frank designed, persisted with engineering standards and built the R22 in the 70’s for the average joe to be able to afford a helicopter. (He designed the original most affordable and low maintenance helicopter available to mankind, and he did not realise we would take that design to use it for what we have done with it since then.)
Quiet a good platform for the design and back then was a cheap alternative to a Bell, Hughes 300 or Enstrom.
The R22 has proven to be a very competitive aircraft for training, commercial operations and private operators over the last 30 odd years.

Now with the G2. Modern technology, yes.
Rotor head, awesome. Mini Squirrel.
Engine management system. Up to date, yes.
Endurance. Great except pilots like to take a pi$$ every now and then.
Airframe. Also in par with the times.
Styling, almost there.
Tail rotor. IMO Under powered and proven to be so in previous designs.

So who spent the time and energy on the G2?
From what I know, A bloke who was en ex employee of the old Eurocopter establishment, aided with decades of intelligence.
And yes a bloke who took initiative to follow a dream.
Good on him!

Apples for apples.

Choose a platform that works for you.
Look at the statistics.
Operate the machine up to or below the recommended limits. Go beyond and you have the chance of becoming a statistic.

In saying all this, I think the mentioned designers above need room for improvement in ever changing times. But also keep in mind they are the ones risking everything to make a dream come true plus investing their $ for our bosses to invest in and for us to play with.

If I had my choice. I would fly a Squirrel every day, carry out the job (in the single world..) cash in and go home to my family.

GF.
There is always an option.
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skypig
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby skypig » Sun May 3 2020, 22:54

General comments:

Robinson Tail Rotors are very effective (Legend has it that this is due to Frank previously being a TR Guru at Hughes)
Fenestrons are generally less efficient at low speeds (compared to “cruise” where they use less power than a traditional TR)
As mentioned above, often Fenestrons require greater pedal movement. This can lead pilots to mistake them for less effective, or lead to insufficient pedal initially.
I have no experience with the Cabri G2, but a little time in an EC120. New pilot: “The TR isn’t very good*”. Me “Really?” And push the pedal. Them “Oh...”

The sequence in the video appears to be a classic:
Put the machine in position where it requires a substantial increase in anti torque. (Down wind - loss of ETL {MR/TR} and “weather cocking”)
Allow a yaw to develop (much more power required to “arrest” than “prevent”)
Raise the collective (To overcome loss of ETL, and “for safety” and “in panic”)
Put in a lot* of “power pedal”.

Many machines have insufficient power to deal with the sudden increase in power requirements (Raised collective and big application of power pedal) and lose RPM - and therefore TR effectiveness.

R44’s have, under many conditions, a large power margin and a great TR. They often overcome this scenario, “saving” the underperforming pilot.
When cashed up private owners trade up to an EC120, and continue flying the above profile/technique, they get a recorded “over torque” at the very least.

* Many pilots, in my experience, push the pedal more than they are used to (proprioceptive cues). They then feel, and sometimes state, “I’ve got full pedal”.When they demonstrably haven’t. (Usually with the old “push with both feet” syndrome.)
angrypalmtree
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby angrypalmtree » Mon May 4 2020, 14:54

Ah this old thread.
All good points people, with a few more years experience under my belt now I can say, the mechanical things dragging down the G2 are the engine fan, TR and electrical system. Tail rotor probably doesn't lack authority, just response. Not really what you want under the canopy or down wind chasing a beast. The Robby will be around for a while yet. Taining machine yes G2 most of the time. Out bush it's going to be the 22 for the rest of my working life.
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby kiwiandy » Mon May 4 2020, 21:55

angrypalmtree wrote:Ah this old thread.
the mechanical things dragging down the G2 are the engine fan, TR and electrical system. .


Hi there can you please elaborate on these for me?
bl@ckers
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby bl@ckers » Tue May 5 2020, 01:12

kiwiandy wrote:
angrypalmtree wrote:Ah this old thread.
the mechanical things dragging down the G2 are the engine fan, TR and electrical system. .


Hi there can you please elaborate on these for me?


I would have to agree with angrypalmtree. I have almost 200 hours instructing in the G2 and I have the same concerns.

They don’t handle hovering around in 30 degree temperatures too well, they overheat quite quickly. There was a gasket mod that came out to solve the oil recirculating problem, which it went some way to solving. However it is still an issue.

TR authority is actually quite good at operating RPM. However, any small loss of RPM at a high power setting and you will find your right foot at the limit very quickly. Practicing hover taxi engine failure is always fun if your student doesn’t react promptly as you will soon lose the ability to control the heading.

The TR thrust is very strong also at operating RPM. At the bottom of a power terminated auto when bringing in the power, if you’re not prepared you will get significant left drift. Quite a bit of right cyclic required.

The electrical system (assuming you are referring to all the sensors) was a big issue. I think we had replaced almost every sensor. Each time it was down for a week or so waiting for replacement parts. No recent issues, so hopefully this has been resolved.

Overall a great machine and incredibly safe. Not sure on their suitability for mustering as I’m not convinced they were designed for Australian conditions (northern part anyway). However, as a trainer they are fantastic, safe and highly responsive.
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby angrypalmtree » Wed May 6 2020, 01:22

Well said bl@ckers.
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby Gizzool » Mon May 25 2020, 12:04

Hi
Last edited by Gizzool on Mon May 25 2020, 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
Gizzool
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby Gizzool » Mon May 25 2020, 12:07

Gizzool wrote:Hi Kids
I haven’t been on this site for a long time because I’ve been busy working my Cabri G2 on a cattle station in NT.
This machine can do everything required of it and more. I am the first person in Australia to put the G2 in to this kind of work, although I believe Calibre Aviation was looking at adding one to their lineup. I work it in dust smoke and heat and extreme humidity. The conditions here need to be experienced to be believed. It is true that the Cabri was not designed for northern Australia, but which helicopter was. I muster alongside a 22 and perform the same mustering manoeuvres. I have never experienced Loss of tail rotor authority or any overheating issues. We have open country and scrub so thick that you can’t see the ground under it. So lots of hovering at low level.
So far no parts have worn out any more than other machines. A great deal is made about the fenestron not being up to the job. Well let me tell you it is. And as far as safety goes it is the gold standard when people walk up from behind or get out with head down and walk aft ( no matter how many times you tell them not to ). It is quieter than most which is usually a good thing and I am able to work the mob much more closely. This low noise makes it much easier to ‘lead’ a mob. However there are times when stubborn animals need a bit more noise. My machine is placarded to burn unleaded or any blend of ulp and avgas100. This helps on long ferries.
I won’t tell wild stories about what this machine can do, but I will say this;
I put the Cabri G2 into this job on my own private dollar and this little helicopter can walk the walk and is up to any of the challenges the bush can throw at it.
I do it, on a daily basis, I don’t just post thoughts and opinions on a forum.
For the non-believers the registration is VH-CDU.
Sincerely
Bruce Connolly
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rotors99
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Re: Cabri G2 Mustering?

Postby rotors99 » Fri May 29 2020, 02:36

Gizzool wrote:
Gizzool wrote:Hi Kids
I haven’t been on this site for a long time because I’ve been busy working my Cabri G2 on a cattle station in NT.
This machine can do everything required of it and more. I am the first person in Australia to put the G2 in to this kind of work, although I believe Calibre Aviation was looking at adding one to their lineup. I work it in dust smoke and heat and extreme humidity. The conditions here need to be experienced to be believed. It is true that the Cabri was not designed for northern Australia, but which helicopter was. I muster alongside a 22 and perform the same mustering manoeuvres. I have never experienced Loss of tail rotor authority or any overheating issues. We have open country and scrub so thick that you can’t see the ground under it. So lots of hovering at low level.
So far no parts have worn out any more than other machines. A great deal is made about the fenestron not being up to the job. Well let me tell you it is. And as far as safety goes it is the gold standard when people walk up from behind or get out with head down and walk aft ( no matter how many times you tell them not to ). It is quieter than most which is usually a good thing and I am able to work the mob much more closely. This low noise makes it much easier to ‘lead’ a mob. However there are times when stubborn animals need a bit more noise. My machine is placarded to burn unleaded or any blend of ulp and avgas100. This helps on long ferries.
I won’t tell wild stories about what this machine can do, but I will say this;
I put the Cabri G2 into this job on my own private dollar and this little helicopter can walk the walk and is up to any of the challenges the bush can throw at it.
I do it, on a daily basis, I don’t just post thoughts and opinions on a forum.
For the non-believers the registration is VH-CDU.
Sincerely
Bruce Connolly


Great update Bruce, thanks Mate! Yaaar she's a great machine, just needs a engine with a few hundred years advancement on the museum piece that's presently mounted in her :idea: Cheers pop;

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