Next Generation Fire Pilot

[godfather007]

Firstly, Merry Christmas to all.
My thoughts go out to all who are out there flying over this Xmas working on fires(Ground and in the Air) off shore, charter and all the other operations whilst sparring their time away from their family.
I myself are blessed to be home ATM with my family for the next few days before heading back out.

More recently I have been asked by many up and coming pilots the same question,” How do you get experience to get on fires?”
I explain to them the usual requirements, that are hard to get and expensive as well.
The other problem they face is getting fire ground time.

My question to this issue ( and I hope smarter people than me can contribute) “What can we do for these up and coming Pilots to gain the experience, knowledge and credentials to fill the seats in the future?”

We are currently seeing the start of a decline in good drivers that will increase in the following years.
This will surely create a void and problem in the future.

I know so much about the problem with the new Part 61 rules, but have trouble explaining it in words.

Dose the RFS and CASA need to get together and look into the future regarding this potential short fall?
Do they realise this and are they prepared already?
Can operators get some sort of extra money on top of the usual rate to help train up new pilots?

These are some of the questions being thrown around ATM.

I have only put this post up to raise awareness and create some positive information for the next generation of Pilots to learn and perhaps get involved.

I was lucky enough to have great Operators and Chief Pilots trust me, guide me and invest in me over the years to help my skill set.

Im sure any other constructive input will help this situation.

Be safe and happy!

GF.

[SuperF]

Probably no different than the current shortage in good engineers. Supply and demand, eventually the price goes up and operators realise that if they train up a few themselves then they can actually keep their machines earning money.

[godfather007]

Yes very true.
I must admit I forgot to include our much appreciated tool spinners. My bad once again..
Both engineers and drivers work hand in hand to achieve the outcome.
And yes, working tools is another skill on the decline.
GF.

[Jeffory]

Unfortunately I think the Australia solution is probably just to bring in Canadian and American pilots to fill any shortfalls. My opinion.

[Jabberwocky]

Merry Christmas GF and all.

This is certainly the season to get sucked in to the system. It has worked for some thats for sure. The next few years might be a lot leaner as a result with less fires and much less intensity. Could be wrong.

There will be a multitude of VET Fee juniors coming in to the system, and the usual intake of brethren from the Eastern State. I don’t think we’ll ever really get short. Players just have been a bit wiser with whom they direct their networking. Will be interesting for sure.

One thing I will add though is that the camaraderie has been strong around the fire grounds. It’s been hard work, but the people have really made it thus far this season.

[mdav]

What short fall?

To get on fires as a pilot is just natural progression and fire time is not always a yes or no to get a job but ultimately up to the company hiring. Go to Canada if your young enough to get some exposure.

[Hello Pilots]

Pretty simple really, be involved with a company that does that kind of work.
There’s no magic and all that NAFC minimum stuff you read is a load of bollocks.....at least the 50hours of Fire time before you can get on a fire. Even 100 hours on type. If the company or CP is willingly allowing pilots and trusting them, unless there is a bingle how will the relevant departments know? A lot of companies just waiver these to suit THEIR situation.(mainly financial)

[Firefish]

Pretty simple really, be involved with a company that does that kind of work.
There’s no magic and all that NAFC minimum stuff you read is a load of bollocks.....at least the 50hours of Fire time before you can get on a fire. Even 100 hours on type. If the company or CP is willingly allowing pilots and trusting them, unless there is a bingle how will the relevant departments know? A lot of companies just waiver these to suit THEIR situation.(mainly financial)

How will the departments know? ARENA is how.

[Hello Pilots]

Aaaaand who enters the figures into ARENA?
You clearly aren’t picking up what I’m putting down.
I’m not saying that it’s right, more alluding to the fact that it happens.

[havick]

Easiest way is for newish pilots to do a stint up in Darwin where they use R44’s to throw some water around.

The time on type is the easier part for an operator if someone has fire time, usually lots of ferries going on at the start of the season.

[Firefish]

Aaaaand who enters the figures into ARENA?
You clearly aren’t picking up what I’m putting down.
I’m not saying that it’s right, more alluding to the fact that it happens.

If a pilot is willing to forge his/her logbook and a chief pilot is prepared to sign off on it I guess that’s one way to get around it.
Pretty ballsy in this day and age.

[homersimpson]

First flying job I ever got they made us fudge the numbers. Guys just said you don’t have to, but then you’re out. It’s common practice in Australia.

[UnObvious]

No dodgy numbers in my logbook but for my first medium contract in Canada, the ops manager told me the number I'd write down on the intake form for time on type when I turned up at the heli base..

Realistically time on type is a crock of s#!t. If you're competent you're competent. A magic number doesn't mean anything.

[Jabberwocky]

Time on type in to mediums is probably as prevalent as the first hurdle of getting fire time itself for being falsified. You just have to accept the consequences if you get audited and found out, not that I’ve ever heard of anyone being caught...

[Twistgrip]

Aaaaand who enters the figures into ARENA?
You clearly aren’t picking up what I’m putting down.
I’m not saying that it’s right, more alluding to the fact that it happens.

If a pilot is willing to forge his/her logbook and a chief pilot is prepared to sign off on it I guess that’s one way to get around it.
Pretty ballsy in this day and age.

Agreed, just wait until your facing a judge in the Supreme Court if the unthinkable happens. Not really worth your career and house is it ? Because you can bet your bottom dollar the company won’t be supporting you in the event of an accident or fatality.

[Capt Slong]

This whole mentality of just fudge the numbers makes me F#&King furious.

I for one made the commitment and worked is some pretty s#!t parts of the world and sacrificed a lot to get going in the industry and move into mediums. Along the way I learnt some life lessons that have kept me alive this long.

If you think "just write the numbers in" I Hope you get found out or your fly with a decent CP who calls you out on your experience (in you log book) vs ability, because all your doing is wrecking it for the rest of us and those who are coming through and doing it the right way.

I fully agree with mentoring and bring guys through and in some cases applying to the agencies for a dispensation for certain pilots but how about we do it the right other wise it makes a mockery of the industries standards but perhaps more import will put unqualified and inexperienced people at risk.

[UnObvious]

This whole mentality of just fudge the numbers makes me F#&King furious.

I for one made the commitment and worked is some pretty s#!t parts of the world and sacrificed a lot to get going in the industry and move into mediums. Along the way I learnt some life lessons that have kept me alive this long.

If you think "just write the numbers in" I Hope you get found out or your fly with a decent CP who calls you out on your experience (in you log book) vs ability, because all your doing is wrecking it for the rest of us and those who are coming through and doing it the right way.

I fully agree with mentoring and bring guys through and in some cases applying to the agencies for a dispensation for certain pilots but how about we do it the right other wise it makes a mockery of the industries standards but perhaps more import will put unqualified and inexperienced people at risk.

Completely agree on fudging the numbers in the logbook being the wrong thing to do.

The industry's standards are a load of s#!t thought up by someone completely out of touch. Competency should be the biggest thing.

If you've got some tourism driver with thousands of hours but a bush guy with a few hundred, I know who I'd rather have working the fires.

From stories I've heard, it's a pretty rare thing to get a dispensation from the experts in the fire agencies.

These days you need 1500 hrs to fly a 44 up the beach on shark patrol so I don't think the agencies are completely up to speed on realistic experience requirements...

[Hello Pilots]

Just to untie the knotted panties.
I never once said to fudge ones logbook nor do I condone it. My comments were directed at operators that do knowingly allow pilots without said minimums to conduct operations.
If you don’t think the company will stand by you if you have a serious accident then you can always say no. (Kind of like the met conditions people have been flying in this season)

[godfather007]

Mmm.
Fudging hours will bite you bad one day.
It might not be a crash, it may be a random audit from CA$A or a decent CP/OM/SO when you apply for your next job and even if you live or die from a crash be it your fault or not you leave a massive mess behind for your family to deal with if you lie. Twisty has nailed that in his post.
Insurance company’s spend lots of time and money to prove someone’s at fault (usually the driver) to not pay out any thing! And operators wipe their hands and walk away then demand payment for their losses if you have lied.
There has been many cases where a pilots family and estates have been sued and fully drained of any assets due to this.
My log book is clean and has been audited by CA$A 3 times and ATSB twice. This was random once with CA$A and twice by both due to other pilots in company’s I worked for many moons ago as one crashed and lived and the other was buried with no compensation for his family.

Keep the discussions up.
I think we are a ways off trying to assist in having some clarity to help educate the next generation and get them skilled up.

It’s not a short fall yet, but look at the current climate.

Happy Boxing Day!

GF

[Eric Hunt]

I was lucky enough to have got in on the ground floor in the early 90s, fighting fires with absolutely no experience on the job (but 8000 hrs under the belt) and only the practice with a brand-new Bambi bucket done at Manly Dam, learning to hit the ski jumps from 30' and 30kt.

How does a pilot get a foot in the door these days? You can't go unless you have already been.