G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

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Cleanme2
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G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Cleanme2 » Fri May 28 2021, 02:17

Im sure this should be easier to find but im struggling to find the requirements to upgrade from a Grade 3 to Grade 2 FI.

61.1235 states requirements are...."Grade 3 training endorsement, At least 200 hours of flight time conducting initial flight training in an aircraft of the specified category"

The only definition of 'initial flight training" is... "initial flight training" means dual flight conducted for training in the units of competency mentioned in the Part 61 Manual of Standards for the grant of a recreational pilot licence.

As far as i can read is that initial flight training can only be counted if it is towards a recreational pilot license?? This doesnt sound correct??
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Fill-level » Fri May 28 2021, 03:51

200 hours flight training = ab initio. So from the beginning .

A grade 3 can instruct for RPL,PPL,CPL.

Read up on the part 141 in your flight school, the process will be in there .
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Cleanme2 » Fri May 28 2021, 04:21

Fill-level wrote:200 hours flight training = ab initio. So from the beginning .

A grade 3 can instruct for RPL,PPL,CPL.

Read up on the part 141 in your flight school, the process will be in there .


Thanks for the reply!

what reference are you using for the 200 hours flight training = ab initio. So from the beginning . ??

Ab initio is a term that i hear a lot, but cannot find a CASA definition of it. I am of the understanding that ab initio is up until student goes solo. But 'from the beginning" of what?
The only reference (from CASA) that i cant find is for G2 200 hours of initial flight training and for a G1 500 hours of initial flight training, no reference to ab initio.
This now leads me to try and find a definition of "initial flight training" other than one which stipulates that it is for a RPL.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Fill-level » Fri May 28 2021, 05:05

Casa deem the RPL the lower of the licence ....hence from the start or initial or from the beginning.

Im not sure if you are a grade 3 or wanting to be a grade 3 or looking to upgrade to a grade 2, but generally you will be assessed by you're HOO and recommended to be upgrade not just on hours but standards.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Gunga Din » Fri May 28 2021, 07:23

"Ab initio" would refer to instructing basic students - not the instrument flying or night flying - just the really scary bits where Bloggs tries to destroy the aircraft and take you with it.

We had some dealings with an ex-military instructor, who had only done conversions from the Kiowa (B206) to the Blackhawk, and wanted to get a civil instructor rating as a paper transfer. Sorry mate, you gotta be able to teach the absolute basics. He still had to transfer some paper, though I believe the notes are polymer these days.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby _chopper » Fri May 28 2021, 07:54

The way to think of it is the units of competency in the part 61 MOS that make up the basic RPL Syllabus. So general handling and emergencies but excluding navigation, cta and the like which are endorsements for an RPL and not part of the basic RPL. So if you're teaching general handling or emergencies then you count it as the initial flight training towards those requirements.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Cleanme2 » Sat May 29 2021, 01:25

Thanks for all the responses, this has cleared it up for me!!
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Rotorpilot » Sun May 30 2021, 07:42

Would confined areas, pinnacles, low level flying be deemed as initial ? Or is it not as its in the Navigation phase or phase after solo?
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby hand in pants » Thu Jun 3 2021, 02:18

This is typical of the way caa has run the industry. Rules are now so spread out and unintelligible that we don't know exactly what we can or can't do. Every foi has their own opinion of what we can and can't do and how we do it.
Now we have two more seat warmers on the caa board, a military man and an academic. Neither are going to help GA, both with little or no CIVIL aviation experience.
God help the industry over the next couple of years.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby skypig » Thu Jun 3 2021, 11:00

Rotorpilot wrote:Would confined areas, pinnacles, low level flying be deemed as initial ? Or is it not as its in the Navigation phase or phase after solo?


Are they, Pinnacles and low flying, requirements for an RPL?
Back when I had the slightest idea, they would not be “initial”
Ab-initio was for a basic PPL, as mentioned not including nav.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Wannabe60Driver » Thu Jun 3 2021, 14:59

Fairly sure any confusion here stems from the fact almost none of us ever did an RPL and few even do a PPL if they’re intent on going straight to CPL. In the fixed-wing world, ‘ab initio’ is well understood as the hours that count as a progressing instructor as they all followed the RPL, PPL, CPL path as a student themselves.

General handling, emergencies, and everything necessary to get a student flying solo around the training area all count as that’s RPL level. The second the student either passes an RPL flight exam or progresses to nav or CTA, they’re training for PPL level and the hours no longer count as ab initio instructing.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Rotorpilot » Fri Jun 4 2021, 09:21

Ok so now to add some more fun.....

When a student goes solo are you the PIC of that said Aircraft?
Does that mean an instructor can log those hours of flight or is it just solo in the students book and none for the instructor?
Last edited by Rotorpilot on Tue Jun 8 2021, 03:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby bl@ckers » Fri Jun 4 2021, 09:42

When a student goes solo, they are PIC. As an instructor you are responsible for approving the flight and supervision from the ground. Never heard of anyone trying to claim those hours, but from what I hear there are a few BIC hours around.

With respect to “ab initio”, it is now defined as “initial flight training”, which is all sequences up to RPL (not any endorsement on the RPL, I.e Navigation). If you have a look at the RPL standards in the MOS, you will see that initial flight training is essentially everything in the CPL or PPL syllabus excluding Navigation, Pinnacles and Low Level. It does include confined areas (check the MOS).
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Rotorpilot » Fri Jun 4 2021, 10:56

Thank you for the clarification.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby Gunga Din » Fri Jun 4 2021, 11:26

When a student goes solo. You are the PIC of that said Aircraft and responsible.


What???

You are not in the aircraft. You are not Pilot in Command - the student is.

You took on a responsibility to decide if he was ready to solo, but you are not responsible if he stuffs it up. You made a decision that he had satisfied you that he had completed the sequences pre-solo, but ultimately he is responsible. However, if it is shown that you cut some corners or passed him when he should have had remedial training, you will get a boot up the bum from the boss. But you are not going to log time that you are not in the aircraft.
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Re: G3 to G2 and "initial training" definition

Postby hand in pants » Tue Jun 8 2021, 03:00

What Gunga said.....................................................
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