Missing helicopter north of Melbourne

[Thunderbird_1]

There's just a brief mention on The Age website at the moment of a crash at 9:35am. ABC News has a 'breaking news' item mentioning a helicopter but no further details as yet.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 5a9o0.html

[Thunderbird_1]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-31/ ... /100954600

[godfather007]

Condolences to the family’s and friends.

[chilli]

Very, very sad. My thoughts are not only for the families of those lost, but also for all the pilots and engineers at this Melbourne helicopter company who will but deeply affected.

Look after each other.

[skypig]

“When one helicopter came out of the cloud, the other was missing”
Sounds like potentially another avoidable, poor decision regarding weather.

Regardless of what is determined in this case - don’t forget: Many of these decisions start with the charter booking - always explain then that there is the possibility of “weather” that may prevent the flight. And if it is dubious on the day, an expensive return to base might be the outcome. Before leaving the ground it is the call of the client to “give it a go”, after it is the call of the pilot to continue.

[T-Bone]

Another tragic day for aviation, and a very dark day for a well established respected Melbourne company.

Sincere condolences to the victims families.

[Heliduck]

“When one helicopter came out of the cloud, the other was missing”
Sounds like potentially another avoidable, poor decision regarding weather.

Regardless of what is determined in this case - don’t forget: Many of these decisions start with the charter booking - always explain then that there is the possibility of “weather” that may prevent the flight. And if it is dubious on the day, an expensive return to base might be the outcome. Before leaving the ground it is the call of the client to “give it a go”, after it is the call of the pilot to continue.

Well summarised Sky pig. My philosophy for risk assessment - anyone can say no to a task, only the PIC can say yes.

[Gunga Din]

anyone can say no to a task, only the PIC can say yes.

Well, I would put it the other way around - Lots of people will say "Yes" to a task, but when the PIC says "NO", that is the end of discussion.

[cupid stunt]

These type of incidents continue to happen, sadly without pilots seeming to learn from the mistakes of others.

I often wonder what we can do to intervene and maybe prevent this from happening. Is it a case of education, do we need to empower and maybe protect pilots should they say no to a job on safety (weather grounds), do we need the regulator to do something (I hope not)? How can we create change at the active end of this problem? I would dearly love to no longer have to sit at the passive end offering our condolences and quietly shaking our heads as to what led the PIC to stumble into the tragic situation.

I have held an instructor rating for many years and have always said that you can train a monkey to fly but you couldn't train a monkey to think (no insult to those involved intended). The thinking is what's really needed, what are training schools doing to instil airmanship and good decision making into the fresh CPL's that we let out into fraternity? Does there need to be a more structured approach to mentoring, can we stop the crew room barracking when it comes to pilots being cautious when it comes to go/no go decisions when it comes to weather? My personal mantra has always been life, licence, company, job and I've often heard a55, tin, ticket, corny but whatever brings the risks into focus that drives good decisions to be made.

I'm just spit balling here but I really hope that one day incidents of these type become fewer and further between.

My condolences to the friends and family of those aboard that have lost their lives. Thoughts also the team at Microflight, difficult days ahead.

CS

[Fill-level]

These type of incidents continue to happen, sadly without pilots seeming to learn from the mistakes of others.

I often wonder what we can do to intervene and maybe prevent this from happening. Is it a case of education, do we need to empower and maybe protect pilots should they say no to a job on safety (weather grounds), do we need the regulator to do something (I hope not)? How can we create change at the active end of this problem? I would dearly love to no longer have to sit at the passive end offering our condolences and quietly shaking our heads as to what led the PIC to stumble into the tragic situation.

I have held an instructor rating for many years and have always said that you can train a monkey to fly but you couldn't train a monkey to think (no insult to those involved intended). The thinking is what's really needed, what are training schools doing to instil airmanship and good decision making into the fresh CPL's that we let out into fraternity? Does there need to be a more structured approach to mentoring, can we stop the crew room barracking when it comes to pilots being cautious when it comes to go/no go decisions when it comes to weather? My personal mantra has always been life, licence, company, job and I've often heard a55, tin, ticket, corny but whatever brings the risks into focus that drives good decisions to be made.

I'm just spit balling here but I really hope that one day incidents of these type become fewer and further between.

My condolences to the friends and family of those aboard that have lost their lives. Thoughts also the team at Microflight, difficult days ahead.

CS

Everyone is aware of the Swiss cheese effect , as experience is gained the more the holes become aligned. The insurance companies can also pinpoint when a pilot will have an accident based on hours.
VFR and IMC never mix.

[skypig]

The old truism:

The more experienced pilots turn back, while the less experienced press on.
While the most experienced pilots are drinking coffee in the crew room wondering why anyone would take off in this weather.

[Ogaff47]

The old truism:

The more experienced pilots turn back, while the less experienced press on.
While the most experienced pilots are drinking coffee in the crew room wondering why anyone would take off in this weather.

This can definitely be true of less experienced pilots trying to prove their mettle, but I don't think it's completely true that more experienced pilots won't push weather they shouldn't. Experience ≠ sound decisions, as I've witnessed countless overconfident high-time pilots push weather and get into trouble.

We're all susceptible to peer/organization/customer pressures and just being aware of those external factors/threats is helpful.

[Ops normal]

I have worked for operators with very little paperwork in terms of duty, cfit courses and other courses which make government organisations happy in terms of getting contracts. I have worked for operators who have every course and paperwork measure under the sun.

The place with by far the best safety culture and practical oversight I have worked had the worst paperwork as above and the best machines. The worst place I have worked for with genuine safety had every course and paperwork measure under the sun.

Whilst these measures are all good steps towards safety, I feel they are often put in place to impress clients and reduce operators liability.

How does all this relate to these tragic events, well hopefully it doesn’t and I know nothing about the operators or pilot but it’s just a perspective that I think about surrounding these events when people question decision making of the pilot.

I have watched a few excellent pilots fall to the wayside of progression in this industry in place of lesser skilled pilots whom tend not to say no.

Again I can’t stress enough I don’t know the operators or the pilot and I am not suggesting for one minute that my perspective relates in any way to these events, but I feel it’s worth general consideration.

[cupid stunt]

I have watched a few excellent pilots fall to the wayside of progression in this industry in place of lesser skilled pilots whom tend not to say no.

And therein lies the rub. Mediocrity is rewarded BECAUSE it makes money. Money is important that is absolute, but if you think safety is expensive try having an accident. I have stood in the crew room while an allegedly senior pilot with lots of runs on the board embarrassed a pilot into departing base against his better judgement due weather. I also poked the same 'senior pilot' hard in the chest over it and laughed in his face when he had to explain to the boss when said pilot parked the aircraft remotely unable to proceed due said weather.

Turning back or saying no is hard. Not nearly as hard as telling relatives that their loved ones aren't coming home. I am sick of these incidents happening, I want to help find a way to make it stop.

[Wannabe60Driver]

Am I the only person that finds it interesting that this thread is happening at the same time as another regarding Australian rotary flight crew licenses not being ICAO compliant because we’re the only country in the world where instrument training isn’t mandatory?

If inadvertent IMC is going to continue to be a death sentence for Aussie rotary pilots, isn’t it about time the powers that be revisited the assumptions that allowed a 105 hour license here with zero time on instruments?

Yes, that would require many instructors and flight examiners to do some more training themselves, but just because a system ‘has always been that way’ doesn’t mean it’s optimal.

[skypig]

Doing a couple of hour “On Instruments” (like they do in FW training?) sounds like a good idea, but like “Skid control” for new drivers, can actually be counter productive.

IF, and skid control are perishable skills. It’s very possible, that the skills perish faster than the confidence - leading to less safety margin.
(I was once involved with driver training, and studies showed that it was only in countries with ice on roads being common, where “skid control” courses didn’t lead to an increase in crashes.)

Put another way - VFR pilots should be scared of putting themselves in IMC.

Any experienced IF pilot would be terrified of going unplanned into IMC 100’ above the trees in the mountains. Even in a superb IFR machine. It goes against the principle of IFR operations. What is the plan to ensure terrain clearance? What is the plan to get visual again?

[Jabberwocky]

Very good points SkyPig. Don't fly in cloud.

Also concerning is the other one that went in on Sunday. That's 3 in less than a month. Some tragic events of late.

There are some good points made in Mick's podcast - https://rotarywingshow.com/105-enroute-decision-point/ - I recommend listening to it and reflecting on some of the content.

[Hello Pilots]

Case in point, the Koby Bryant accident.

[lowlevelhell]

Without reading anything about this crash, but hearing the outcome, I strongly suspected the usual trifecta;

1) entered inadvertent IMC
2) became spatially disoriented
3) CFIT

add commercial pressure, plus no local knowledge and it's a forgone conclusion.

[Gunga Din]

1) entered inadvertent IMC
2) became spatially disoriented
3) CFIT

Well, after spatial disorientation, it is usually UNcontrolled flight into terrain, UCFIT.