G'day,
Can any ex/current military front seaters provide details on the stringency of the sitting height measurement taken during the pilot medical?
My sitting height is over by a couple of cm's when I sit absolutely upright, however when I sit more 'normally' it is within limits. I guess I am curious as to how this aspect of the testing Is conducted and if there is any flexibility.
cheers
Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
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- New Member
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- 2nd Dan
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
I had the same issue when I went through the process 5 or 6 years ago. I had to go to Oakey and do a physical seating assessment in the Kiowa (trainer at the time) with all of the gear on. Unfortunately I was wedged in and wasn’t able to progress because of it, even though I already had 100 hours in the Jetranger!
I believe this is less of an issue now as they are using the H135, which has less of a height restriction.
Good luck
I believe this is less of an issue now as they are using the H135, which has less of a height restriction.
Good luck
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- New Member
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
Thanks for the info mate, shame to hear. What is your sitting height if you don't mind me asking?
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- Silver Wings
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
for someone who is currently in the army and has sat ASP previously and not made it in due to height restrictions, the current seating height doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon as it has to do with the PC21 ejection seat and if you are above those height requirements you will be snapping your neck if ejected from the aircraft. It has nothing to do with the new trainer H135 or operational aircraft. Spoke to an army aviation capitan recently who said these height requirements are non negotiable.
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- Gold Wings
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
The ejection seat criteria also considers the length of your lower legs when seated.
If your thighs are not flat on the seat when your feet are together on the footplate prior to ejection, it is highly likely that one or both femurs will be broken when the seat accelerates into the gap between the seat and the rear of your lower thighs and kneecaps and rendering you unconscious at the same time. (the rate is about 30 ft/sec at least for about 7 secs).
Broken femurs can be life threatening situations due to the possibility of severing the femoral artery with broken bone ends + you would be under parachute unconscious and not able to steer it or prepare yourself for landing which is essential to prevent injury at any time.
Ejections seats are fitted to the trainers (FW not RW), so if the trainer is a high G tolerant type, you would be wearing a partial g suit (leg chaps) which would aid you in not bleeding out quickly if the worst happened, but they would not stop the bleeding or passing out (shock).
A tip with the process: if you come up against a barrier as you've described, there is another path, but they will not tell you this; put together every reason as to why they should accept you and ask for a waiver - its not guaranteed, and you'll be watched all the way until you qualify if they grant it - passion and merit are still considered having a value - don't ask, you won't get it. (you are not the first and others have succeeded).
A bit of luck and you have to drive it if you want it bad enough.
Steve
If your thighs are not flat on the seat when your feet are together on the footplate prior to ejection, it is highly likely that one or both femurs will be broken when the seat accelerates into the gap between the seat and the rear of your lower thighs and kneecaps and rendering you unconscious at the same time. (the rate is about 30 ft/sec at least for about 7 secs).
Broken femurs can be life threatening situations due to the possibility of severing the femoral artery with broken bone ends + you would be under parachute unconscious and not able to steer it or prepare yourself for landing which is essential to prevent injury at any time.
Ejections seats are fitted to the trainers (FW not RW), so if the trainer is a high G tolerant type, you would be wearing a partial g suit (leg chaps) which would aid you in not bleeding out quickly if the worst happened, but they would not stop the bleeding or passing out (shock).
A tip with the process: if you come up against a barrier as you've described, there is another path, but they will not tell you this; put together every reason as to why they should accept you and ask for a waiver - its not guaranteed, and you'll be watched all the way until you qualify if they grant it - passion and merit are still considered having a value - don't ask, you won't get it. (you are not the first and others have succeeded).
A bit of luck and you have to drive it if you want it bad enough.
Steve
Keep it flying, don't quit!
- Heli
- 3rd Dan
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
ozloadie wrote:The ejection seat criteria also considers the length of your lower legs when seated.
If your thighs are not flat on the seat when your feet are together on the footplate prior to ejection, it is highly likely that one or both femurs will be broken when the seat accelerates into the gap between the seat and the rear of your lower thighs and kneecaps and rendering you unconscious at the same time. (the rate is about 30 ft/sec at least for about 7 secs).
Steve, are you sure about that? No bang seat I know of has a requirement for the occupant to remove their feet from the pedals/floor well and put them flat on the floor for an ejection: that's why jet jockeys wear garters around their calves which are connected to retraction cables. The cables pull the lower legs in snug with the seat and shear as the seat leaves the aircraft.
- havick
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
Heli wrote:ozloadie wrote:The ejection seat criteria also considers the length of your lower legs when seated.
If your thighs are not flat on the seat when your feet are together on the footplate prior to ejection, it is highly likely that one or both femurs will be broken when the seat accelerates into the gap between the seat and the rear of your lower thighs and kneecaps and rendering you unconscious at the same time. (the rate is about 30 ft/sec at least for about 7 secs).
Steve, are you sure about that? No bang seat I know of has a requirement for the occupant to remove their feet from the pedals/floor well and put them flat on the floor for an ejection: that's why jet jockeys wear garters around their calves which are connected to retraction cables. The cables pull the lower legs in snug with the seat and shear as the seat leaves the aircraft.
That’s basically what he’s saying. There’s a hip to knee maximum length for that exact reason. So you don’t lose your legs (with the instrument panel in the PC9/21 being a guillotine) from punching out.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel."
- RePLCPLH
- Silver Wings
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
As the other lads have pointed out, the height limits are all about the PC21 rather than the 135s at HATS or any operational helos currently run, or about to be run, by the Army or RAN. As you'll know if you made it to your assessment day for a medical, a prospective Army pilot would have around 60 hours on the PC21 before getting to HATS, and a prospective RAN helo pilot more like 200.
The only possibility I can think of for someone in your position to eventually fly rotary in the ADF is to get your CPL(H) and a bunch of hours and cross your fingers that when/if the Army eventually opens back up the Specialist Service Officer route because they're short helo pilots, you're in with a shot. SSO is the approx. 6-week 'knife and fork' officer course that a doctor or nurse get, before going straight into transition training on the type you'd be flying.
If the SSO route never opens back up, at least you'd be flying helos. Likewise, the ADF isn't the only place in the world to do that type of flying.
The only possibility I can think of for someone in your position to eventually fly rotary in the ADF is to get your CPL(H) and a bunch of hours and cross your fingers that when/if the Army eventually opens back up the Specialist Service Officer route because they're short helo pilots, you're in with a shot. SSO is the approx. 6-week 'knife and fork' officer course that a doctor or nurse get, before going straight into transition training on the type you'd be flying.
If the SSO route never opens back up, at least you'd be flying helos. Likewise, the ADF isn't the only place in the world to do that type of flying.
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- Silver Wings
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
I definitely wouldn't be holding your breath for SSO entry, Army and by the sounds of it, Navy, are both only going to be taking ADFA entry pilots. I had been told that Army was going to start DEO pilots again next year but that has yet to be confirmed.
The seated height measurement is done sitting with hips pushed all the way back against a wall, then sitting up straight with elbows at 90 degrees down against your ribs with hands in front, palms facing in (think robot pose). There is no slouching or fudging the measurement.
Interestingly I am eligible for all aircraft other than ARH, not sure which measurement was the limiting factor there.
The seated height measurement is done sitting with hips pushed all the way back against a wall, then sitting up straight with elbows at 90 degrees down against your ribs with hands in front, palms facing in (think robot pose). There is no slouching or fudging the measurement.
Interestingly I am eligible for all aircraft other than ARH, not sure which measurement was the limiting factor there.
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- Gold Wings
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
Heli - yes, I am very sure.
Havic - you are spot on with that addition.
If your legs are out from footplate which is at the base of the seat you will probably lose your leg(s) to the dashboard (see Havic) and may tip the trajectory of the seat as well. The G's produced from the launch rate of the seat would be greater than the effort you would physically need to able to pull your legs back in time to fit into the narrow portal that is available for a very brief time.
None of the FW propeller driven trainers fitted with ejection seats I flew in had leads attached to my legs, you had to place them there yourself, that was the drill, not my opinion.
There is a positive drill prior to exiting which relates to the pilot preparing for the event (helmet secure, seated correctly conforming to the seat profile and heels of both feet back against the seat on the footplate, harness locked), not just pulling the handle on a whim.
I might add, if the canopy does not eject or separate cleanly as part of that chain, then the seat horns will penetrate it first, then you (which will not happen well if part of you is sticking out!)
A close mate of mine in the RAAF was over height, applied for a waiver and it was granted (112 Course).
He ended up in Mirages.
Banged out of one Mirage and broke both femurs and survived.
Continued flying Mirages and had a flameout later over Darwin.
He did not want to risk the trauma of another ejection so they foamed the runway and he rode it in successfully.
He had exercised two of the points I made earlier and he is still alive today.
Havic - you are spot on with that addition.
If your legs are out from footplate which is at the base of the seat you will probably lose your leg(s) to the dashboard (see Havic) and may tip the trajectory of the seat as well. The G's produced from the launch rate of the seat would be greater than the effort you would physically need to able to pull your legs back in time to fit into the narrow portal that is available for a very brief time.
None of the FW propeller driven trainers fitted with ejection seats I flew in had leads attached to my legs, you had to place them there yourself, that was the drill, not my opinion.
There is a positive drill prior to exiting which relates to the pilot preparing for the event (helmet secure, seated correctly conforming to the seat profile and heels of both feet back against the seat on the footplate, harness locked), not just pulling the handle on a whim.
I might add, if the canopy does not eject or separate cleanly as part of that chain, then the seat horns will penetrate it first, then you (which will not happen well if part of you is sticking out!)
A close mate of mine in the RAAF was over height, applied for a waiver and it was granted (112 Course).
He ended up in Mirages.
Banged out of one Mirage and broke both femurs and survived.
Continued flying Mirages and had a flameout later over Darwin.
He did not want to risk the trauma of another ejection so they foamed the runway and he rode it in successfully.
He had exercised two of the points I made earlier and he is still alive today.
Keep it flying, don't quit!
- havick
- 4th Dan
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
ozloadie wrote:Heli - yes, I am very sure.
Havic - you are spot on with that addition.
If your legs are out from footplate which is at the base of the seat you will probably lose your leg(s) to the dashboard (see Havic) and may tip the trajectory of the seat as well. The G's produced from the launch rate of the seat would be greater than the effort you would physically need to able to pull your legs back in time to fit into the narrow portal that is available for a very brief time.
None of the FW propeller driven trainers fitted with ejection seats I flew in had leads attached to my legs, you had to place them there yourself, that was the drill, not my opinion.
There is a positive drill prior to exiting which relates to the pilot preparing for the event (helmet secure, seated correctly conforming to the seat profile and heels of both feet back against the seat on the footplate, harness locked), not just pulling the handle on a whim.
I might add, if the canopy does not eject or separate cleanly as part of that chain, then the seat horns will penetrate it first, then you (which will not happen well if part of you is sticking out!)
A close mate of mine in the RAAF was over height, applied for a waiver and it was granted (112 Course).
He ended up in Mirages.
Banged out of one Mirage and broke both femurs and survived.
Continued flying Mirages and had a flameout later over Darwin.
He did not want to risk the trauma of another ejection so they foamed the runway and he rode it in successfully.
He had exercised two of the points I made earlier and he is still alive today.
The stirrups pull your legs/feet to the base of the seat as part of the ejection sequence.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel."
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- 1st Dan
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Re: Military Aviation Class 1 medical (sitting height)
Ozloadie and Havick - both correct. The bowyangs which are attached to your lower legs are supposed to pull the bottom half of your legs towards the base of the seat when you eject in order to keep them clear of the instrument panel as you exit, however, in the event of a controlled ejection where you have time to adopt the correct posture part of the process was to take your feet off the pedals and tuck them back in against the bottom of the seat. At least that's my memory from flying Macchis and PC9 many years ago. I remember one RAAF cadet just ahead of me who was 193cm tall, ejected from a Macchi at Pearce and broke both his femurs as there was an air gap between his thighs and the seat when he was sitting erect. Poor bastard was put back on course when he recovered but was killed in a car accident driving back to Pearce one night.
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