Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
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skypig
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby skypig » Sat Dec 30 2017, 11:01

AFAP response

I am writing to advise members of the steps your AFAP have been taking in response to a number of recent media reports on the “pilot shortage” and possible government proposals to further water down the Visa arrangements for overseas pilots.

As you would be aware, the AFAP successfully advocated to have the occupation of pilot removed from the list of eligible occupations under the previously named s457 Visa program. We also advised members of the subsequent and disappointing decision to exclude employers of pilots in “regional” areas from the new Temporary Skills Shortage Visa program.

During the week there was a front page article in The Australian and further reports on Channel 9 regarding the alleged pilot shortage and plans to extend the Visa period for overseas pilots from 2 years to 4 years. These reports were triggered by hysteria over a pilot shortage, suggestions from Dick Smith that overseas carriers were buying up all the Australian flight schools and some very predictable lobbying from the Regional Airlines of Australia Association (RAAA). Since then we have contacted all of the reporters and done a degree of our own media, including radio interviews, in an attempt to put a bit of balance back into the debate. While not as “sensationalist” as a number of the recent participants in the debate our core messages to journalists and in the media are as follows:

1. The shortage at regional carriers is mainly due to current cyclical growth at Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar.

2. There is a ready supply of young eager Australian pilots who are ready willing and able to fill these vacancies, but training them up to standard takes time and requires investment in training by the airlines.

3. CASA’s new Part 61 licencing regulations are also partly to blame as these have increased training costs and complexity for operators for questionable safety benefit.

4. Historically this shortage is nothing new in the industry cycle as Regional Airlines from time to time lose pilots to the major airlines.

5. The proposed expansion of Temporary Visas to use foreign pilots to fill gaps is an unnecessary ‘knee-jerk’ or ‘band-aid’ solution to the problem and disadvantages Australians.

6. Improving terms and conditions for Australian regional pilots will reduce attrition moving forward.

7. The AFAP is ready to work with airlines to plan for more sustainable training and retention solutions for companies.

Thank you to everyone who contacted the AFAP with their concerns. Rest assured we are doing everything we can to correct the misinformation and sensationalism. In the New Year we will also be re-doubling our efforts to lobby Government for a fair outcome for Australian pilots and ensure the temporary Visa scheme does not continue to be abused by certain employers.

Yours sincerely,

Captain David Booth
President
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FerrariFlyer
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby FerrariFlyer » Mon Jan 8 2018, 22:29

Interesting article on the current fixed-wing pilot shortage, particularly given the training cost variance compared between Canada and Europe:

https://www.aerotime.aero/en/civil/2069 ... 2018-01-08
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby Mag seal » Mon Jan 8 2018, 22:41

Autonomous aircraft will create a glut of Pilots never mind a shortage.

The Average age of pilots is 40 something according to most articles, so that gives the boffins 20 or so years to fully automate most of the new generation of aircraft.
In the future you may see one Pilot (systems operator) on this next generation of Airliners.

Just my opinion.....but I certainly wouldn't be wasting 100K on pilot training.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby FerrariFlyer » Tue Jan 9 2018, 02:00

I see you’re point Mag Seal and agree in part. Some operations (like freight ops, maritime surveillance) could soon be automated with a pilot stationed on the ground in the future.

However, the human psyche is such that few people will enjoy or indeed actually fly on a plane without a human involved ‘up front’ - despite the fact that it’s often the human element that in fact causes some accidents.

The training is becoming more expensive but with a shortage comes opportunity and some considerable salaries are being offered to keep and attract airline pilots. The initial outlay for airline career focused people right now is definitely worthwhile. How long that lasts is debatable but it’s showing no signs of letting up anytime soon!
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby Helical » Thu Jan 11 2018, 13:05

I think the fear of flying without a pilot up front will start fading pretty quickly once driverless cars start to become the norm. At the moment that fear is there, but I don't think it will persist for more than another couple of decades.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby SuperF » Thu Jan 11 2018, 20:05

:lol: ha, ha, ha pilot shortage... :lol:

we can send over another 500 or so from NZ if you guys are running out...

pop;

have those vietnam guys retired yet? or are we still waiting for the Korean War guys to retire first??
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby Helicoil » Thu Jan 11 2018, 20:37

Image
plumber
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby plumber » Sat Jan 13 2018, 03:16

The Irony of Aussies worrying about foreign workers taking their jobs is pretty funny.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby skypig » Sat Jan 13 2018, 03:44

plumber wrote:The Irony of Aussies worrying about foreign workers taking their jobs is pretty funny.



Yes, hilarious.
See someone come from overseas, potentially from an area with much lower living costs, work for less and make some Aussie who has invested a huge sum of money and half their life in their Career unemployed.
Doesn’t get any funnier.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby PullPitch » Sun Jan 14 2018, 03:45

skypig wrote:
plumber wrote:The Irony of Aussies worrying about foreign workers taking their jobs is pretty funny.



Yes, hilarious.
See someone come from overseas, potentially from an area with much lower living costs, work for less and make some Aussie who has invested a huge sum of money and half their life in their Career unemployed.
Doesn’t get any funnier.



Sounds exactly like Australian and Kiwi's coming to Canada.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sun Jan 14 2018, 06:35

No gross generalisations in this thread are there...
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby plumber » Tue Jan 16 2018, 20:57

skypig wrote:
plumber wrote:The Irony of Aussies worrying about foreign workers taking their jobs is pretty funny.



Yes, hilarious.
See someone come from overseas, potentially from an area with much lower living costs, work for less and make some Aussie who has invested a huge sum of money and half their life in their Career unemployed.
Doesn’t get any funnier.

Kinda my point. You guys and gals from Oz and New Zealand have driven the Canadian market into the ground. Enjoy the Karma.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby Airbeater » Tue Jan 16 2018, 22:00

...
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby NZHelo » Wed Jan 17 2018, 00:03

plumber wrote:
skypig wrote:
plumber wrote:The Irony of Aussies worrying about foreign workers taking their jobs is pretty funny.



Yes, hilarious.
See someone come from overseas, potentially from an area with much lower living costs, work for less and make some Aussie who has invested a huge sum of money and half their life in their Career unemployed.
Doesn’t get any funnier.

Kinda my point. You guys and gals from Oz and New Zealand have driven the Canadian market into the ground. Enjoy the Karma.


BS
When I was there I worked in places most Canadians did not want to work.
I got no negativity or feelings of animosity from the locals for me being a foreign pilot.
I am sure if the local had 1500 hours then there wouldn't be an issue (most "decent" contracts require said amount)
Just filling the void.
I believe it is harder to get visas into Canada now.
That being said,If it wasn't for OZ/NZ pilots ability to work overseas then there would be a hell of a lot of Bell Mediums being flown by foreigners during the Australian summer.
Progression (to mediums/twins) isn't really a well accepted word by a majority of operators in the Australian industry........
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby FerrariFlyer » Wed Jan 17 2018, 02:44

plumber wrote:Kinda my point. You guys and gals from Oz and New Zealand have driven the Canadian market into the ground. Enjoy the Karma.


Not correct. Not even close. The GFC did a good job at destroying the industry in Canada in 2007-2008. Private equity withdraw funds for exploration, the sub prime mortgage crisis drastically reduced the need for Canadian lumber and pine beetle added to the latter problem. Ever since it’s been a somewhat slow recovery to ‘normality’.

A lot of freshly minted CPL holders bemoaned (and still do) foreign pilots working in Canada. The majority of pilots who gained work were 500-1500hr pilots with some reasonable experience. Saying that experienced pilots from overseas decimated the industry is a plainly false and misguiding statement.

Year after year helicopter industries the world over import both man and machine to assist with skills deficits unique to that country. It’s nothing more than filling a gap not able to be fulfilled by local talent and business.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby flyhuey » Wed Jan 17 2018, 07:03

"Fake News!"

Or, news designed to pressure the government to relax the visa situation to bring in foreign pilots.

There are well qualified and experienced pilots under employed or unemployed, throughout Australia, mostly older.

I met a well experienced older pilot sleeping in his car, in the bush, in QLD . . . Not by choice.

I knew an fellow who has passed away, also very well experienced worked as a Captain for Ansett, who ended up only affording a shack, commuting back and forth to Adelaide to provide training a Sim.

I met another older Captain, who could not land a job here who ended up in Borneo.

Et cetera. So, there are pilots available . . . Even if not current and qualified that should be employed. How about "work for the dole" . . . as a pilot?!

What happens is when the major employers, like Qantas and Virgin open the flood gates to the HR Managers desk, many pilots, especially younger ones, get picked up, from the Regionals and Charter Operators, who will themselves recruit and guys from the bush go there for their initiation to turboprops and jets and, since the operators out in the bush cannot compete with salaries offered by Qantas and Virgin or the Regionals, and the Insurance demand 3 Moon Landings, to fly a Cessna 206, the vacancies are left unfilled.

Another problem that complicates the equation is Communist China is vacuuming up every available airline Captain or guys who do not know anything about being an expat Captain in some oppressive, dysfunctional or developing country.

China places age limits on recruitment 53 or 55 are typical . . . No such thing as anti-discrimination laws, there.

China probably pays the most of all Asian countries, but foreign Captains will earn every dollar . . . Forget Crew Rest. Typical contracts are 80 to 85 flying hours per month. You may think that is nothing, until you do it. Falling asleep or a micro-sleep on Final Approach would not be uncommon. It also would not be uncommon to find automotive parts or bicycle parts on a Boeing. Most of the young Chinese First Officers (Co-pilots) have between 750 to 2,500 total flying hours. Most cannot be trusted to land the aeroplane the same way twice. No clue about CRM. Expect them to make a Flap setting of their choosing, regardless what you as Captain call for and know is required and within Limitations. When scared, they latch onto the controls and you have to fight them on the controls in sh!tty weather, to minimums on a rain soaked runway. If a Chinese First Officer is sick or only had 4 hours sleep, due to flight delays, he will be financially penalised if he takes a day off, so you are always flying with sick and tired crew, from the front to the back of the aircraft. A minimum salary expected could be more than $13,000 USD/month. And, they offer double that, depending on which airline and size of aircraft. Most foreign Captains don't last 18 months. Many when they commute home do not return. Others never return from Annual Leave. BUT, if you can put up with all that, you can quickly put away enough to pay for a down payment on your first mortgage and a better car or truck than you presently own. I am saying, if you make the transition from flying helicopters to aeroplanes, build your hours flying freight and charter (getting real experience versus flying circuits as an Instructor), then move up to turboprops and then a jet job as a First Officer, then Captain, you can make some real coin -and, you're not hanging your arses out on the end of a tether, for the rest of your careers . . . In 20 years, I went from flying the Bell Iroquois in the Army to Captain of Boeing 747-400 jumbo jets . . . back then, it just took that long to overcome the stigma of being a helicopter pilot by folks who do not appreciate you can make a 747 hover, if you rotate the wings fast enough.

I am just saying guys. The opportunity is there if you want it. I did it and trust that I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Now then, the advantage of being dual rated is, you can make money when the helicopter industry dries up or when the aeroplane industry (typically airlines) have massive redundancies, which has a trickle-down effect.

All that said, be sure along the way, get something else going for yourself, whether it is a uni degree that you can earn money with, like a Civil or Mechanical Engineer, or get a business going, or something as a safety net, should you lose your medical, scratch paint, or whatever. The truth IS is, as a young pilot you think you will be flying and earning money when you are 90, and you may want to, when you are a young pilot, but Reality has a way of sneaking up on you.

So, I have heard about pilot shortages, since 1978. It was part of the reason I did my mandatory time, then joined the Reserve, so I could start advancing my civil career. All "fake news".

My best advice.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby bangequalsbad » Wed Jan 17 2018, 08:45

Well, on the plus side, all the homeless old pilots who pissed away all their income on booze and divorces probably have better yarns than the ones spending all their time typing horrendous monologues to an audience that actively seeks to annoy said keyboard warriors.
Humans are rarely as useful as they think they are at the best of times, let alone after 60.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby Heliduck » Wed Jan 17 2018, 09:32

The fallacy of youth is to believe that intelligence is a substitute for experience, the fallacy of maturity is to believe that experience is a substitute for intelligence.
"Plan twice...Fly once"
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby PullPitch » Wed Jan 17 2018, 16:43

NZHelo wrote:
plumber wrote:
skypig wrote:

Yes, hilarious.
See someone come from overseas, potentially from an area with much lower living costs, work for less and make some Aussie who has invested a huge sum of money and half their life in their Career unemployed.
Doesn’t get any funnier.

Kinda my point. You guys and gals from Oz and New Zealand have driven the Canadian market into the ground. Enjoy the Karma.


BS
When I was there I worked in places most Canadians did not want to work.
I got no negativity or feelings of animosity from the locals for me being a foreign pilot.
I am sure if the local had 1500 hours then there wouldn't be an issue (most "decent" contracts require said amount)
Just filling the void.
I believe it is harder to get visas into Canada now.
That being said,If it wasn't for OZ/NZ pilots ability to work overseas then there would be a hell of a lot of Bell Mediums being flown by foreigners during the Australian summer.
Progression (to mediums/twins) isn't really a well accepted word by a majority of operators in the Australian industry........



I'm going to guess you worked for one of the companies that operates out of Fort Something. One of the only companies in the country that has the majority of their work force employed by foreigners. Why? Not because of a lack of experienced pilots or as you say Canadians not wanting the work. But because companies like this know they can abuse the TFW program, you foreigners don't have a choice to go work for another employer when you realize you will be working 42 days on and 5 days "off". They can pay you below industry standard and you won't complain because you are just here to build turbine and long line experience and will be gone after the season is over so who cares right? No sane Canadian will work for said companies because of these pathetic conditions and sub standard pay and the fact they want you to live in these s#!t little remote Northern communities and refuse to realize people need a work life balance and should be flying crews in and out on a rotation. The only reason these companies still exist and haven't gone bankrupt is because TFW pilots keep them and their awful business practices going. There is a reason said company posted an ad here, on an Australian forum that was nowhere to be seen on any Canadian sites.
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Re: Pilot shortage. The Australian Thursday Dec 28

Postby NZHelo » Wed Jan 17 2018, 19:37

Au contraire
There’s more than one helicopter company in Canada.
I wasn’t living in a fort and I got paid very well without having to prostitute myself.
I wasn’t chasing turbine time.
The nationals I worked alongside worked generally for a month then went home and only really did 42s during a busy fire season. Most enjoyed working where I was and for the record I’d say that the majority of “foreign” workers were from Europe and had in fact migrated!!!
I could go on about my wonderful experience flying in many parts of canada but now isn’t the time nor place, I will save that for other topics or replies that require triggering.
Don’t mix your sour grapes with my imported apples.
Au revoir

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