Wages - Operators have your say

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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CYHeli
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby CYHeli » Mon Feb 23 2009, 21:34

hand in pants wrote:As CP of an AOC holder ...

Just the sort of person that my original post was aimed at.

hand in pants wrote: You get paid what you are worth, and some dick in an office who more than likely is ex military and who couldn't get a job in civvie street decides that this will be the minimum wage for a boggie pilot doesn't mean you will get it. Somebody needs to do the math on this.

Exactly what I asked.
Then contact the dick in an office and tell them what the real figure should be.
Otherwise, why not?
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Master Cylinder » Mon Feb 23 2009, 21:49

Remain calm...breathe...
To fly is human, to hover...divine!
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Freewheel » Mon Feb 23 2009, 23:02

hand in pants wrote:You get paid what you are worth, and some dick in an office who more than likely is ex military and who couldn't get a job in civvie street decides that this will be the minimum wage for a boggie pilot doesn't mean you will get it.


Actually the decision is made by a tribunal member with considerable experience, after considering submissions by employee representatives (unions) who want salaries high, employer groups (corporate unions) who want salaries low, frequently the crown for the government's view and subject to due consideration. There IS comparison with other occupations, like it or not.

The starting wage is considerably lower than the national average wage, but higher than the minimum wage.

The point here is this; All employees are entitled to know the scope of their duties. If being part of the crew of an aircraft is part of their duties, then the award applies. Anything else is illegal.

I've not seen here anybody asking for megabucks right from the go. All anybody asks for (especially as a newbie) is what they are legally entitled to.

If employers who can't justify an EBA can't afford the award, or are too greedy to let it go, you need to adjust your business model.

If, as a job seeker the first question in your mind is "what's the money", you need to adjust your attitude.

It's a big old world out there and everybody needs to realise that while give & take is part of it, there are minimum starting points for both parties.

Oh and as for the principle of underpaying somebody while they get up to speed, if it's OK for a new commercial pilot, it must be OK for a new chief pilot - after all they've never been a CP before, so they'll take their time too.


I'm interested in what one of the high profile employers thinks on the issue - though I can understand why they wouldn't want to identify with themselves in what is undoubtedly the most poisonous issue seen on this forum.


Whilst I can tell we're never going to agree, I'm still fascinated by how guts will chime in......
Never forget that some people exist purely as a warning to others.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby sid snot » Mon Feb 23 2009, 23:26

wheels
Do the aviation industry a favour and stick to plumbing...its more suited to your attitude

So you expect them to sweep the hangar floor clean the toilets cut the grass and then what
eventually heavy maintenance ?
The award has been set by the government of Australia if you can't accept that setup your operation in China..

You won't be able keep a pilot for 5 years to determine if he / she has what it takes to be your CP because of how good they clean toilets.

They will only use you as a stepping stone to move on to a company that shows much more respect as soon as the opportunity arises
I'd like to know how you consider a high turnover of staff a safe efficient way to run an aviation company.

The Aviation industry in Australia is small and you will quickly get the name you deserve with the only long term loyal staff you have on your books unable to get a job anywhere else because they are incompetent or incapable.
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Izzy Fullashat
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Izzy Fullashat » Tue Feb 24 2009, 00:04

HIP wrote
This would take a new CPLH about six months of hard work and not a lot of flying and nothing like $42,000 a year while I'm teaching them these things. The reason for this is that I want my pilots to be able to do a commercial job from start to finish, on their own and correctly with very little or no input from me. They should know the company operations manual back to front, like I do, they should know what the requirements of a job entail, fuel needs and availablity, logistics, how can we do the job efficiantly but within the legal requirements, can we actually do the job, do we have the aircraft, the skill base, the ancillary equipment. A pilot needs a lot more than just a licence before the get anything like the award wage. They need to be able to EARN their money.

Let me just pose this question to you Mr Pants. If by chance you knew of a bloke that just finished his licence (105hrs), you were looking for a trainee and this person that you know has wife and 2 kids because it took him a little while (later in life ) to save the $60000 to do his licence how would you expect him to be able to pay the bills on less than the SO CALLED AWARD WAGE of $42000 for 6 months? As I said you do know him, so if you answer yes I dont think your friend would be to keen to work for you.

Now if you dont give him a go on the family grounds I'm sure theres anti discrimination laws against that, to discriminate against someone thats applied for your trainee job just because he has a family. Now when they do make all these awards they do take into account all of the variables like family, no family, experience through training, living costs thats why its an award. I think I might have met you before Mr Pants and you didn't seem like a calous BASTARD that you are making out with the above comment or maybe it wasn't you that I met.

Wheels if your going to start a helicopter business, hiring newbie pilots paying them less than the award but on the grounds that you are quoting a few jobs and thats when you will talk to your pilots about a wage rise. What happens if decissions on quoted jobs take longer than expected or they fall through how long do you expect your so called good newbies to hang around?

I think at the end of the day we should just let the individual decide whether or not they can live on whats on offer, but as pilots we shouldn't be paid less than what its going to cost to live. Well thats my ramble for the moment and ready for the backlash from my comments.

Izzy (I still am)
OHH!!! CRAP I still cant come up with a catchy saying!!!!!!!
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Tue Feb 24 2009, 00:52

sid snot wrote:wheels
Do the aviation industry a favour and stick to plumbing...its more suited to your attitude.


I am taking this constructive critisism all on board but this is a bit harsh!!

HIP I fully understand where you are coming from and 100% agree

As the subject said "Wages - Operators have your say"
I'm an operator of a business my tool to pay for my desired job to come.
HIP and a few who are reading and staying on the side not commenting are looking from a business prospective
HIP stated that he wanted to teach them the ins and out of the business so when they are out there they can run everything to do with that operation!!!
this costs money to train people!!
a 105 hour pilot has a shiney ticket to learn
When it is not so shiny they will be making the good dollars
Generally this takes about 5 years for the guys I have met in the industry with both fixed and spinners
(this is to make the real good dollars or the job you really want)

Stick with me for 5 years cleaning toilets WOW now that would be an experence!!
this has been completely blown out of the water

When you read over the complete forum and take everything from an operators view and run a sucessful business of any kind for more than five years (making money and doing it to the law) come back with a big smile and comment positivly

I completly understand where the unpaid and underpaid are coming from! Been there!

Low time guys if you talk to operators and pilots you will find out who is paying and who is not and
Who is doing the right by there employees and who is not!

I would rather work for under award (for pilots) for somone who is going to give me a go.
Who is going to teach me there business, Answering phones, Quoting , Planning, and flying
so I could run the office / opperationon my own.
Build hours, get jobs, plan jobs.

without this the operators will ask??

what is the good of a pilot that can only fly???
What value is he or she to my business???

When I employ people there are two type of people I employ.

1 job spacific! Short term to do one job.
Plenty of pilots out there doing this!!

2 if you want full time with me as a trade employer you will either be an apprentice where your final year you will learn all the office side so I can go and set up another operation incresing my workload put in for bigger jobs ect. and be willing to do everthing from dealing with the customer to answering the phone quoting for the company ect.

This is learnt in your own time not mine if you are trade qualified.

Apprentice I will teach because they have put in the hard yards for me!!

If you cannot do this, the whole job you are just another labourer!!

The big bucks and long term big bucks go to the guy's that don't just look at the pay in there pockets but the whole company!
If the company continues to make the money they continue to pay well train more and expand.
Look after your employees!!! your long term ones.

I have found the guy's that get paid what they deserve do what they need.
If they deserve above award they shoud get it. :cool_dc: These guys hang around!!
If they don't deserve it they should get the "AWARD" for the job they are performing. :too_cool: they are there and staying but not loyal.
And if they deserve less they are the first to be shown the gate. :cry:

that is life !

Now Give me those Pilot faces! you know the ones! you just did a low level flight or what ever gives you the buzz! 8)

Now everybody breath Remain calm relax

Now back to making the folding things!! :D that was one long brew looks like I work threw lunch again. Oh I can do that legally.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Tue Feb 24 2009, 01:00

Izzy
Wives are good at answering phones taking messages and general enquiries
I know of alot of adult apprentices yes plumbing that there wives take on a roll within the same company they too can get a job to tie them over, marrage is a partnership, plenty of jobs for there partners out there!!
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby havick » Tue Feb 24 2009, 01:09

wheels,

do you have a cpl(H), own a helicopter operation or at the least be a CP of one?
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Skywork » Tue Feb 24 2009, 01:18

HIP , if you were referring to a earlier post I put up regarding a endorsement being done on the job not being done properly consider this,
All endorsements have been in excess of 8 hours which include all syllabus PLUS advance flying and techniques and little things that make a aircraft perform and these are the things that are never taught in a flying schools because you have charged him a set price for set hours. 12 years of solely Low level and maximum loads they walk out with a far better endorsment than 99% of other recipients that pay for a endorsement.
This industry is in the crapper when a few people get the power of cheif pilot and it goes to there heads and they get the take it or leave it attitude, they want the cheapest slave. I know what back ground makes the best person for my operation and I target those people, and barely have any problems,
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Ray McCooney » Tue Feb 24 2009, 01:58

Wheels, with no experience in the Helicopter industry and no CPLh or the hours required to get some of the contracts out there (Rio Tinto 2,000Hours plus good time on type to fly a gig for them)as an example, just how are you going to start this Aviation business of yours and where will you be based?

Would you be looking at experienced pilots, if so what do you think an experienced bloke is worth, if you think a new bloke is only worth labourers pay?


Ray

HIP, would you like another chip to go with the one you have on your shoulder about the military?
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Aladinsane » Tue Feb 24 2009, 02:12

Re Awards and Federal min Wages.......

My basic research confirmed what I thought was the case. The only GA helicopter pilot award I can locate dates back to 1999 and was only valid for 12 months. I also recall that there was something about being a signatory to the award and seeing a list of those companies.

Since then, numerous other companies and their employees have agreements listed which appear much more current.

As far as the Federal Min wage it works out to about $30K p.a..........
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby droptmcguts » Tue Feb 24 2009, 02:17

Freewheel:
Whilst I can tell we're never going to agree, I'm still fascinated by how guts will chime in......
:lol: Your only Human.....

Going by the Quality of responses on this emotional subject Might i suggest some of you remain cleaning toilets? :wink: At least that way I will never have to worry about how you earn your living... Won't ever be as Helicopter Pilot with the poor atitudes displayed. :shock:

HIP - your a ledgend mate.. :D
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby DisTracTion » Tue Feb 24 2009, 02:40

From an owner operators point of view, I aways looked for value added pilots or crew. Guys or girls who had extra skills and enthusaism. I paid well and we all got along well. I had totally no respect for anyone who came in asking for work and offering to work cheap / free, sometimes I would give them a go, but generally they did not have what it took. But I still paid them properly for the work done.
I often would explain to these people that they were the root cause of the industry problems.
I know its tough out there to get a break, but if you stick at it and have skill you will get noticed.
While im at it, any employer that pays substandard wages or takes advantage, was more than likley one of the type described above. (so the cycle continues)
They deserve all the problems they get (and use for excuses to pay less), damage, lost time, lost pilots, high staff turnover, high compliance costs due to high staff turnover, etc etc.

If you cannot afford to pay properly for professionals,rethink you business models or are you just an enthuisist trying to be professional.

There are typos but hey thats not my value added field.
Round up the usual suspects
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Tue Feb 24 2009, 02:44

havick wrote:wheels,

do you have a cpl(H), own a helicopter operation or at the least be a CP of one?


As stated earlier not cp
as stated earlier I have a tool to pay for cp
not going to start until I can do the whole cp in one go with no distractions.
I have less than 3 hours in fixed wings ( trying to supliment my needs of flying)
I hold a class 1 med.

Yes I do own & run, a plumbing business ( my tool to pay)

Just relocated to WA.

currently date set to july 2010 to start my cp :cool_dc:

By this time the WA plumbing op will be running itself, I will have the funds to live breath (& eat normally) helicopters.

business is business, the princple is the same!

I still have wages, fuel, materials, insurance, vechicles that get abused and not looked after constant maintenence ect.

not like helicopters
they just need pilots from the feedback I am getting!!
there is a fuel god and a free hanger nil take off fees no insurance needed
just a ticket
You don't even need customers
just fly around and around.

all digs aside at the wages,

this is a business that has very expensive tools, I am talking about the helicopter, if I have the opportunity to run a business it will be run as my own, but I need the knowledge first!!
If I ever get the opportunity to run my own I will take on the ones that are willing to do a traineeship, learn, earn and reward.
Six months as a trainee count me in. :cool_dc:
I am sure the flying community and any company in the future that gives me a go will understand my dedication to not only flying but making sure I can fly next week too.

I'm not pretending to be a pilot I am a long way off getting the shiny ticket.

I am also not trying to condone having slave labour.

Any employer of the P industries being plumbers, pilots or podiatrist understands that make me money, save me money, you have a JOB.
Trying to explain business to a labourer's and not a career builder is like banging your head against a brick wall.

Give me a guy (or girl) I cannot sack!! Who the only reason for quitting or leaving is for expanding themselves into other areas or other industries (Aviation)
Give me a guy or girl when a prospective employer is calling about them I have to stop what I am doing so I can smile sit and tell them how good they are and not "i could not employ this person again" tell them how well they did for me.
These people don't come from the group of the "I am to good for that's" these people come from those who will listen! are not to good to learn from not only older but everyone around them.
In the past five years I have had two and when it came time to let them go because I was relocating.
I found them jobs. Both of them. with like minded employers. Because this is what you do!!
For the others they went on to find there own jobs with a little help.

Every industry will have someone that will underpay, have employers that treat them like s%^t, but there are the others too
that do reward there workers, increase with experence, give bonus's! ect ect. do you have those in the Avaition industry
the people that keep these positions Earn them. without compliantes usually.
I cannot always pick them but they usually stand out in every crowd.

Great input DisTracTion what we want more of!!

Breathing still not grumpy not angry just stating the facts.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby groundskeeperwilly » Tue Feb 24 2009, 02:47

and some dick in an office who more than likely is ex military and who couldn't get a job in civvie street


HIP...very helpful coment and I fail to see how it really relates to the topic? Is there an axe to grind there or something?

Willy
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby DisTracTion » Tue Feb 24 2009, 02:56

Willy

I usually agree with HIPs comments, and do In this case as well. I have found it very hard to demil ex military pilots / engineers. Though there has been the odd exception.
Round up the usual suspects
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havick
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby havick » Tue Feb 24 2009, 03:43

wheels,

the thread called for OPERATOR'S to put in their 2cents.

At the moment you have no cred, no experience in the helicopter industry whatsoever. you're not even a pilot yet. May I suggest you reserve your comments and grand plans until you get some time in the saddle or build your fantasy helicopter business. I will say this, and I'm sure pretty much everyone else on here that has some time up agrees, no-one is/can take you seriously at all with the crap you're spouting out (even if there may be a valid point somewhere in your dribble) Aviation is not plumbing, it is a different beast altogether.

I may come across as blunt/rude, but many of us have slugged through the industry one way or another only to have someone with no background to tell us how easy it is to "fix" a systemic problem (that in many people's opinion will argue isn't broken in the first place, mine included), it's becoming old now.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel."
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CYHeli
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby CYHeli » Tue Feb 24 2009, 04:05

Wheels wrote: not going to start until I can do the whole cp in one go with no distractions.
I have less than 3 hours in fixed wings


I'm not trying to be personal Wheels, just curious. Have you actually read any of the CA$A docs about chief pilots?
I suggest that you have a look at CAO 82.0 - http://www.casa.gov.au/download/orders/cao82/8200.pdf
Without repeating it all, you need 300 hours to be the CP of a single aircraft operation and 500 hours to be the CP of a multi aircraft operation if all of them are single engine a/c. You are then looking at thousands of hours for multi engine and IFR...

When you say that you are not going to to start until you can do the whole cp thing in one go, do you mean start flying or start a business? Remember, these are operational hours in a working company, not just swanning around the skies.

Also I believe that insurance can be a burden when they look at the experience level of a fresh/low hour CP.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Tue Feb 24 2009, 04:17

CYHeli
CP in one go.

you cannot just go and create a helicopter or any other business for that matter out of thin air no knowledge, no experence
no understanding of the industry ect. ect.

it is still a business with tools to do a job that all costs money inc, labour
so come on any willing to put a figure on what the going rate for a 105 to 150 pilot, no other qualifications Per hour??
And fair comment to all taken onboard!!
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby BennyG » Tue Feb 24 2009, 04:28

Wheels are you confused as to the meaning of CP, and CPL(H).

CP - Chief Pilot
CPL(H) - Commercial Pilots Licence (Helicopter)

You are obviously saving up to go straight through to your CPL in one go without stopping, not to be a CP straight away. If you plan on going straight from 3 hours in a fixed wing, and pay for hours straight through to CP of a heli company, you'll still no f*** all about running a heli company and will fail pretty quickly, just my guess.

Cheers.

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