Flight training for an IFR rating and “real IMC” flying are 2 completely different things, as previously stated.
Lodging a IFR flight plan and flying in CAVOK days and nights is very common in the USA.
I’ve flown with some CFI 2’s and they have never flown near a cloud , never mind inside it.
Depends if you want a cornflakes box instrument rating
Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
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- Gold Wings
- Posts: 181
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- skypig
- 4th Dan
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- Joined: Nov 2005
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Very different in the US, as far as I understand. I’ve never flown there.
In Australia you can do all the IF training you want, in a suitably equipped VFR certified AC, in VMC.
To fly under the IFR, you require an IFR certified machine, and a qualified and current IFR rated pilot.
To do an Instrument rating test, you need to fly under the IFR.
In Australia you can do all the IF training you want, in a suitably equipped VFR certified AC, in VMC.
To fly under the IFR, you require an IFR certified machine, and a qualified and current IFR rated pilot.
To do an Instrument rating test, you need to fly under the IFR.
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- Silver Wings
- Posts: 20
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Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
^^^
What Skyping said.
The machine is not certified for flight in IMC. You CANT fly it IFR. End of story.
You can, however, fly it VFR and conduct instrument training in VMC. Plenty of FW places doing that now.
You are required to file an IFR flight plan to get an Instrument rating. One of the requirements of filing IFR is that your aircraft and it’s crew meet the requirements to operate in IMC. Can’t do that if the machines type certificate is limited to flight in VMC...
That said, these 44s could be a lower cost way to train for Instrument ratings (the fixed wing guys do it is some pretty sketchy machines ) but when it comes to test day, your examiner won’t be taking you up unless it’s in a certified IFR machine. Like a jetty.
Really where the savings could be made here is in simulators. If we had better, cheaper sims then we would be able to do the 20 hrs in them and transfer skills to a similar configured aircraft for a huge reduction in overall cost. Becker’s was a long way down that path, it would be great to see them back in the civil market!! How about the sweet VR thing that Aeropower are growing?? Maybe Life flight could get into the game and offer a Sim only course at a reasonable price. All you need is a 139 type rating... oh wait...
Instrument ratings, why is it so hard... a question for another day and thread
What Skyping said.
The machine is not certified for flight in IMC. You CANT fly it IFR. End of story.
You can, however, fly it VFR and conduct instrument training in VMC. Plenty of FW places doing that now.
You are required to file an IFR flight plan to get an Instrument rating. One of the requirements of filing IFR is that your aircraft and it’s crew meet the requirements to operate in IMC. Can’t do that if the machines type certificate is limited to flight in VMC...
That said, these 44s could be a lower cost way to train for Instrument ratings (the fixed wing guys do it is some pretty sketchy machines ) but when it comes to test day, your examiner won’t be taking you up unless it’s in a certified IFR machine. Like a jetty.
Really where the savings could be made here is in simulators. If we had better, cheaper sims then we would be able to do the 20 hrs in them and transfer skills to a similar configured aircraft for a huge reduction in overall cost. Becker’s was a long way down that path, it would be great to see them back in the civil market!! How about the sweet VR thing that Aeropower are growing?? Maybe Life flight could get into the game and offer a Sim only course at a reasonable price. All you need is a 139 type rating... oh wait...
Instrument ratings, why is it so hard... a question for another day and thread
- Chang739
- Silver Wings
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Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Interesting discussion guys, definitely thought provoking for newbies like me.
The last part about sims is interesting, the technology and software is mature and cheap enough nowadays. Anyone can make a realistic VR simulator setup at home for a few grand. I guess the hurdle is the 'certified' part which I'm assuming blows the economics out of the water, otherwise every single flight school would have one.
The last part about sims is interesting, the technology and software is mature and cheap enough nowadays. Anyone can make a realistic VR simulator setup at home for a few grand. I guess the hurdle is the 'certified' part which I'm assuming blows the economics out of the water, otherwise every single flight school would have one.
- Yakking
- 2nd Dan
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Oct 2007
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
So we're all arguing the same thing now:-)
I'm pretty sure there are flight schools out there with simulator packages, that are already doing that. I know PHS are and I think HeliWest are/were for a time. I am sure there are others, but haven't looked into it.
Times have changed; A mate of mine who is currently trying to make the leap across from VFR to IFR is being quoted in the vicinity of $80k for an IR. Something which I was "given" by a company when they hired me (close to ten years ago).
Seagull wrote: Really where the savings could be made here is in simulators. If we had better, cheaper sims then we would be able to do the 20 hrs in them and transfer skills to a similar configured aircraft for a huge reduction in overall cost. Becker’s was a long way down that path, it would be great to see them back in the civil market!! How about the sweet VR thing that Aeropower are growing?? Maybe Life flight could get into the game and offer a Sim only course at a reasonable price. All you need is a 139 type rating... oh wait...
Instrument ratings, why is it so hard... a question for another day and thread
I'm pretty sure there are flight schools out there with simulator packages, that are already doing that. I know PHS are and I think HeliWest are/were for a time. I am sure there are others, but haven't looked into it.
Times have changed; A mate of mine who is currently trying to make the leap across from VFR to IFR is being quoted in the vicinity of $80k for an IR. Something which I was "given" by a company when they hired me (close to ten years ago).
I wish I had a catchy saying like everyone else...
- havick
- 4th Dan
- Posts: 1300
- Joined: Jun 2007
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Yakking wrote:So we're all arguing the same thing now:-)Seagull wrote: Really where the savings could be made here is in simulators. If we had better, cheaper sims then we would be able to do the 20 hrs in them and transfer skills to a similar configured aircraft for a huge reduction in overall cost. Becker’s was a long way down that path, it would be great to see them back in the civil market!! How about the sweet VR thing that Aeropower are growing?? Maybe Life flight could get into the game and offer a Sim only course at a reasonable price. All you need is a 139 type rating... oh wait...
Instrument ratings, why is it so hard... a question for another day and thread
I'm pretty sure there are flight schools out there with simulator packages, that are already doing that. I know PHS are and I think HeliWest are/were for a time. I am sure there are others, but haven't looked into it.
Times have changed; A mate of mine who is currently trying to make the leap across from VFR to IFR is being quoted in the vicinity of $80k for an IR. Something which I was "given" by a company when they hired me (close to ten years ago).
Think there's a lot of guessing going on there on your part. Heliwest most definitely did NOT file IFR flight plans for training in a non IFR certified aircraft. Some Instrument training in VFR certified aircraft was being conducted but only in VMC and on a VFR flight plan if in controlled airspace or no flight plan at all if OCTA. Same same when I was at Kestrel etc. Some training flights towards an IPC were also conducted in an IFR BO-105, BK117 or a B412 as a work up to the flight test and also covered some portion of the type rating training if the student wasn’t typed on the aircraft.
I'm in the USA now and I'm not aware of anyone here filing IFR flight plans in VMC with VFR certified aircraft. The main difference being here in the USA that an instrument rating or ATP test can be carried out in a non IFR certified aircraft in VMC. When I converted my Aussie ATPL to an FAA ATP, I did it in an R22 on a VFR flight plan but still shot approaches somewhere in Florida.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel."
- Yakking
- 2nd Dan
- Posts: 476
- Joined: Oct 2007
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
havick wrote:Think there's a lot of guessing going on there on your part. Heliwest most definitely did NOT file IFR flight plans for training in a non IFR certified aircraft. Some Instrument training in VFR certified aircraft was being conducted but only in VMC and on a VFR flight plan if in controlled airspace or no flight plan at all if OCTA. Same same when I was at Kestrel etc. Some training flights towards an IPC were also conducted in an IFR BO-105, BK117 or a B412 as a work up to the flight test and also covered some portion of the type rating training if the student wasn’t typed on the aircraft.
I think you misread the post.
I'm pretty sure there are flight schools out there with simulator packages, that are already doing that. I know PHS are and I think HeliWest are/were for a time. I am sure there are others, but haven't looked into it.
No need to file IFR flight plans when you're in a simulator;-)
I wish I had a catchy saying like everyone else...
- skypig
- 4th Dan
- Posts: 1705
- Joined: Nov 2005
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
I did a self funded FW IR as a step towards my goal of flying IFR Helicopters. (A scary number of years ago)
Even with a PPL-A already, it was a significant investment. I remember doing some night “X Countries” to get sufficient Night PIC. I can hardly land a plank in the day time... the things we do!
I’d think dual IF training in a FW, even without a FW licence maybe, would be an option to save money if a certified SIM wasn’t available. (For the IF time that doesn’t have to be in a Helicopter.)
Still have to be able to pass the flight test....In a certified IFR Helicopter, for which a command endorsement is held.
Never easy, or cheap.
Even with a PPL-A already, it was a significant investment. I remember doing some night “X Countries” to get sufficient Night PIC. I can hardly land a plank in the day time... the things we do!
I’d think dual IF training in a FW, even without a FW licence maybe, would be an option to save money if a certified SIM wasn’t available. (For the IF time that doesn’t have to be in a Helicopter.)
Still have to be able to pass the flight test....In a certified IFR Helicopter, for which a command endorsement is held.
Never easy, or cheap.
- Rotorpilot
- 1st Dan
- Posts: 266
- Joined: Mar 2011
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
So did you end up finding an R44 to x-hire?
Dem winds are gonna blow
- Hardman
- Silver Wings
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Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Well that escalated quickly!
Still looking- Thanks for asking
Still looking- Thanks for asking
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- Silver Wings
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Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Hi just wondering Were you still after a 44?
- Hardman
- Silver Wings
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- Joined: Nov 2006
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
PM sent. Cheeers
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- Silver Wings
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Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Hi just wondering if you were still looking for a Raven 2 to x-hire??
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- Silver Wings
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Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Hi just wondering if you were still looking for a Raven 2 to x-hire??
- Hardman
- Silver Wings
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- Joined: Nov 2006
Re: Wanted - R44 and SE IFR heli X-hire
Hi Flyboi,
Check your PM's
Check your PM's
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