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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sun Dec 3 2017, 02:44
by ozloadie
There is a very well documented precedent for not wearing steel capped footwear in any cockpit which was set in World war II, when RAF Wing Commander Douglas “Tin Legs” Bader was struck by a German ME 109, severing his Spitfire’s tail from behind the cockpit, with Bader still alive inside. As he attempted to bail out, the metal foot on one of his artificial legs became immovably jammed in between the rudder pedals. His upper body was out of the cockpit with the aircraft remains in a dive. All of his physical force that he could apply plus the slipstream could not dislodge the jammed foot. Finally, the leather harness that strapped that leg to his body broke, enabling him to separate from the aircraft and he successfully parachuted to ground and survived the war. (“Reach For The Sky” by Paul Brickhill ).
It is highly unlikely that a natural foot in a flying boot would have become rigidly fixed in the same manner as a foot is malleable, you can change its shape and profile within the footwear and the footwear will follow suit to a degree.
A steel boot or cap is not malleable and therefore does not allow for full deflection of the foot as other traditional accepted styles provide.
The comment about running over one’s foot with an aircraft tug or a stretcher is ludicrous. Is the person suggesting this qualified and practiced in any aviation discipline?
The primary accepted method to deal with hazards is to remove them.
The tug /stretcher is a necessary part of the situation as is the operator/driver, so removing either is not a solution. However, if the qualified operator/ driver and the certified tug/stretcher are employed in their roles, using published and regulated procedures as in this case we can remove the “running over own toes” hazard. The tug/stretcher must be in a serviceable state including brakes and flashing lights, and the operator must not operate the tug/stretcher unless seated/positioned correctly on the vehicle/apparatus. Most GSE/medical equipment demands that the operator be in a stipulated position to operate it correctly. Operating procedures also demand a minimum of qualified personnel to conduct any aircraft/medical related operation, therefore again reducing or removing the hazard.
What do the steel cap boots offer to any aircrew, front or back seat?
Do they improve or sustain the aircraft, equipment or aircrew performance? No
Do they increase or sustain the aircraft, equipment or aircrew safety? No
Steel capped boots are bigger, heavier and conduct heat due to the materials they are made of.
Pilots require dexterity with their feet primarily to operate flying controls in the cockpit ie rudder pedals, rudder pedal adjustments and external load manual release levers and toe brake inputs in fixed wing aircraft. Steel capped boots would mask and interfere with the sensitivity and accuracy of these control inputs, incurring a serious hazard, particularly in confined manoeuvring areas and role equipment secondary controls with cargo release mechanisms.
Loadmaster/ crewman/observers/paramedics are required to move around in the rear cabin, in confined areas within and at times amongst minor gaps and spaces in the cargo or between stretcher and litter facilities. They too require a high degree of foot dexterity within such operation arenas as hoist/SAR operations, external load control, pax management and defence/law enforcement support. In these situations, a foot can quite often be utilised as an extra hand to reach an item, secure an item or operate a control out of reach in resource stressed situations. Again, a steel cap boot would mask or obstruct the dexterity required to operate efficiently. There are also role equipment mechanisms which occupy floor space and must remain unobstructed. It would be unfortunate for these to be interfered with temporarily, however, critical if immovable and locked as in the introductory example, ie an unmalleable steel obstacle.
At times, aircrew may have to climb over cargo nets and other aerial delivery equipment to manage it and steel cap boots would be more likely to damage this equipment and get caught in the net mesh, creating further hazards.
Due to the rigidity of the metal cap, friction of the wearers toes causes pain and skin damage. These conditions constitute a Class 9 Dangerous Cargo situation which is defined as causing a distraction to the aircrews duties, and CRM considerations overall.
Say No!

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sun Dec 3 2017, 08:23
by skypig
Ozloadie.

Brilliant. Factually. Indisputable.

I’m going to laminate it for if I’m ever asked to wear steel cappers flying.

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Mon Dec 4 2017, 03:07
by ozloadie
Appreciate your reply Skypig!

Risk assessments airside in military and civilaviation are historic and the resulting procedures are second nature both in operations and training.
CRM is the overwatch for aviators, and that includes ground aspects as well, pre and post flying ops.
Not all OH&S agents are CRM aware, experienced or qualified, so when they make a suggestion or direction, the question needs to be asked, "do you fly? "
An OH&S rep audits, monitors and provides remedies for incidents and accidents when observed and/or reported, they are not there to inflict safety measures upon the operators or organisation.

I've seen suggestions adopted by civil and military organisations in a knee kerk reaction to unsubstantiated "threats" to safety, which cost millions in pointless procedures, extended turnarounds, delays, unseen injury consequences, and sustained straight faced acceptance, instead of admitting the revised procedures had no relevent or evidential basis in the first place.

if you have a 240 volt haircut and you are screaming in your helmet, something is wrong!

Lets not make it harder than it needs to be, and insist that outsiders learn our art if they want to wear the livery.

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Mon Dec 4 2017, 10:18
by PhilJ
I'm confused, how does CRM stop you dropping something on your foot?

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Tue Dec 5 2017, 00:22
by ozloadie
I"d suggest you read "Reach For The Sky" by Paul Brickhill.
Bader dropped an aeroplane on both feet.
The circumstances prior, during and post accident were classic failures to comply with CRM principles.

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Fri Dec 8 2017, 21:43
by Firefish
I don't wear steel caps anywhere near the aircraft I fly for safety concerns. Our engineers will beat the $#it out of me if I do. :D

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sat Dec 9 2017, 21:36
by hand in pants
Sorry ozloadie but I'm with PhilJ, crm is just common sense dressed up to look important.

In my opinion crm is self preservation, you either have it or you don't.

Another turd with sprinkles on it is risk assessment. We have to be taught to do something we do without thinking???????? From an extremely young age the average human starts to risk assess. From the second you get out of bed all you are doing is assessing the risk for EVERYTHING you do. Should I walk out in front of that truck, probably not, I'll wait till there is a break in the traffic. Now they give it a fancy name and tell us we need to learn it. No wonder the world is going down the gurgler.

We have allowed academics a say in our industry and this is the result.

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sat Dec 9 2017, 22:21
by skypig
Aviation is by nature unforgiving and potentially dangerous.

For this reason almost every decision and action we make (since our first flying lesson) has safety as one of the primary considerations.

Most of the “new world” “safety systems” are at best insulting, and at worst counterproductive, when forced apon aviators. Oc:=

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sat Dec 9 2017, 23:26
by hand in pants
100% piggy. 100%

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sun Dec 10 2017, 02:07
by Velvetweasel
Well thanks everyone for the replies, even if some (all) of them wandered a bit, and were just rants about douche-y safety guys. Always a joy to connect with our brothers!!

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Mon Dec 11 2017, 15:18
by ozloadie
Have a few more drinks HIP, you'll feel better!

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Tue Dec 12 2017, 02:52
by rotors99
It's time to put the Boot in.................................to this thread & start an udder one with beer in it!

a very Merry Christmas to One & All....with a Healthy & Happy Yogic New Year to come....Cheers :D

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sat Dec 16 2017, 00:41
by hand in pants
ozloadie, mate, I don't need alcohol to form opinions. Mine differs from yours. It's as simple as that.

It's all well and good for the ohs bods to come up with all of their opinions, add the word "safety" and say it saves lives. Most of it only saves idiots.
Tell me the last time a pilot got his toes broken by dropping something on them.
I get sick and tired of people telling me they know better when they don't even do my job. Hi-viz gear, safety glasses, steel capped boots, long sleeves, fire proof clothing, life jackets in the middle of nowhere, gloves, Christ the list goes on forever. And most of this from mobs of clowns don't have to wear this rubbish for their job sitting on their bums in an office somewhere.
Good example is Westpac rescue. Dressed to crash and survive a fire with the heat of the sun. Never had a crash with a fire, lifejackets every flight even when the closest we got to water was the sweat we threw out, long sleve flight suits (and a switlick live vest) every flight even when it was 40 plus degrees in an un-air-conditioned helicopter. Heat exhaustion, never heard of it.
I could go on but just can't be bothered.

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sat Dec 16 2017, 03:07
by skypig
Causing issues, to not fix a problem that doesn’t exist in the first place.

Two of the best examples of the above:
1. Mandatory aircraft control locks post 9/11. (The same number of Australian AC have been stolen and used for terrorist activities before and after this “innovation”. Lots of time/money has been wasted, and heavy chains etc carried in the cockpit since)

2. Hi vis vests. (Struggling into/out of a hi vis vest on the flightline simply doesn’t feel safe. The possibilities involved with one getting loose in the rotor wash or a 15 knot wind are frightening. Pre hi vis, I’ve never even heard of a pilot being run over on the tarmac. Let alone one who would have been saved by “hi viz”. WOFTAM)

I know, I’m just a dinosaur. Thinking logically, preferring facts over “feelings. So “yesterday”

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Sat Dec 16 2017, 10:03
by huey
skypig wrote:Causing issues, to not fix a problem that doesn’t exist in the first place.

Two of the best examples of the above:
1. Mandatory aircraft control locks post 9/11. (The same number of Australian AC have been stolen and used for terrorist activities before and after this “innovation”. Lots of time/money has been wasted, and heavy chains etc carried in the cockpit since)

2. Hi vis vests. (Struggling into/out of a hi vis vest on the flightline simply doesn’t feel safe. The possibilities involved with one getting loose in the rotor wash or a 15 knot wind are frightening. Pre hi vis, I’ve never even heard of a pilot being run over on the tarmac. Let alone one who would have been saved by “hi viz”. WOFTAM)

I know, I’m just a dinosaur. Thinking logically, preferring facts over “feelings. So “yesterday”



Agree with everything Piggy but the safety guys can add a 'never let go of a non hydraulic collective' in the 47 POH and I won't mind.

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Tue Dec 26 2017, 11:00
by flyhuey

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Mon Jan 1 2018, 07:05
by Heliduck
I couldn't help but think of HIP & Skypig when I read this, fits right in with the electronic flight bag & solves all of our problems!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-01/risk-app-exercise-smoking-lifespan-coffee-alcohol/9296320?section=health

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Mon Jan 1 2018, 07:16
by skypig
I’ve just been out on my 6kw electric skateboard.
Without any formal risk assessment, I’d rate it: “as dangerous as fu#K”!

I claim its for knee/ankle strengthening exercise. Important as we age. :P

According to the app
1. Got me off the couch - +15 mins of life.
2. 20 min of exercise- + 1hr

Of course, every second on the thing is moments from potential painful death or worse.....

https://www.evolveskateboards.com.au/co ... 9008334875

Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Posted: Mon Jan 1 2018, 10:13
by The Scarlett Harlot
skypig wrote:
“as dangerous as fu#K”!




I think I just found a sig line......