Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

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Velvetweasel
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Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby Velvetweasel » Thu Nov 23 2017, 19:56

Hi all,
I am looking for some support documents to be able to argue our H&S guy into allowing us to use non safety-toe boots as heli crew at our rescue base. In my opinion the risk associated with the safety toe boot being uncomfortable while crouching down and the possible damage to aluminium parts of the airframe far out weigh the risk of toe injury from....... i dont know what? He argued that we might run over our own feet while driving the heli tug, or that we might run over our feet with the stretcher.
If anyone has an ops manual or study done that helps my case would be greatly appreciated if you let me know.
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Jabberwocky
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby Jabberwocky » Thu Nov 23 2017, 20:04

I put a similar case forward a few years ago when I was working on construction sites. I’ll try and dig it up, and it was NSW based but the laws may have changed. It revolved around not needing them as long as there was no risk of things/objects being dropped from above. With 99% of my work being on the roof we proved our point - and got to wear the Dunlop Volleys preffered on the slippery fibreglass surface we operated on.

Draw up a quick risk matrix and small SWMS and see what the actually risks are to attain the viability of ditching to toe caps. Safety people get wet over that stuff.
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby FerrariFlyer » Fri Nov 24 2017, 01:06

Velvetweasel wrote:Hi all,
I am looking for some support documents to be able to argue our H&S guy into allowing us to use non safety-toe boots as heli crew at our rescue base. In my opinion the risk associated with the safety toe boot being uncomfortable while crouching down and the possible damage to aluminium parts of the airframe far out weigh the risk of toe injury from....... i dont know what? He argued that we might run over our own feet while driving the heli tug, or that we might run over our feet with the stretcher.
If anyone has an ops manual or study done that helps my case would be greatly appreciated if you let me know.
Fly Safe.
VW.


It’s often difficult to argue anything outside of local
State-based OHS regulations as many OHS staff apply a blanket coverage to aviation which doesn’t account for the unique differences in our work environment. I’d suggest discussing the issue with your chief pilot and/or base manager and see if some education can be provided to the OHS rep and come up with a happy medium or exception.
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby FerrariFlyer » Fri Nov 24 2017, 01:38

Velvetweasel wrote: He argued that we might run over our own feet while driving the heli tug


I’d like to see someone actually try to run over their own feet whilst driving a tug. I think that would take quite a special effort to do. Perhaps ask for a demonstration from the OHS rep... :D
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby Heliduck » Fri Nov 24 2017, 02:38

The level of risk is based on the consequences should the incident occur & the likelihood of the incident occurring. There’s a difference between dropping a light aluminium panel or a 205litre drum on your toes(consequences) & how often that is likely to happen. There’s also a difference between the risk of being cut by the panel or crushed by the drum, but it is best practice to use the PPE based on the worst possible scenario which is why leather steel capped boots are considered the standard. If you have data demonstrating that no-one has ever dropped anything on their foot then you probably have a low risk ranking which might help your argument. I don’t know where you work but the data sample for a GA operation would be too small to convince me if I were the person you were debating with, you might want to get some data from the big airlines or similar. If you are currently required to wear steel capped boots there’s not too many managers who would be prepared to remove that standard because they wold get the pineapple the first time someone gets a toe injury. Rather than argue that you shouldn’t have to wear them because no one has had an incident, you would need to find clear evidence that wearing them is actually doing harm. I’ve been wearing steel capped boots for 30years & Kneeling can create pressure points on the top of the foot, if you do a lot of that work you might want to consider a different design of boot.
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby skypig » Fri Nov 24 2017, 02:57

Definition of an OH&S expert:
Someone who thinks you can pick a turd up by the clean end!
(Provided the correct online training has taken place, and a good acronym has been created and inculcated .)
Oc:=
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby SuperF » Fri Nov 24 2017, 02:59

I wear leather non steel capped boots while flying, i have always found the steel capped boots cut into the top of my toes too much when flying. Its no fun having an open wound rubbed for hours on end while trying to concentrate on flying.

Every site i go onto i just tell them that the shoes aren't steel capped, and when i hop out of the helicopter i wear a baseball cap, no steel caps and no hi vis. I cant have the reflective stuff on what i wear all day as it reflects on screens in the cockpit, and pretty sure that I'm the one creating the risk needing the hi vis and hard hat. so far i have convinced all the OHS guys that i have talked to that it is practical safety, and as we turn up to do our job, then disappear, they have all been happy with it. That includes some of the biggest companies, including BP, Shell etc

It would probably be quite a different case if i was hanging around a work site all day, in and out of the normal site hazards. In that case whatever PPE is required by everyone else i would be stuck wearing.
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby FerrariFlyer » Fri Nov 24 2017, 03:14

skypig wrote:Definition of an OH&S expert:
Someone who thinks you can pick a turd up by the clean end!
(Provided the correct online training has taken place, and a good acronym has been created and inculcated .)
Oc:=


It’s sooo good having your wit back here Piggy.

‘Clean end of the turd’...still chuckling to myself.
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby Evil Twin » Sat Nov 25 2017, 00:50

Reminds me of the jobsworth oxygen thief at Broome that drove half way across the airfield to berate someone for not wearing their hi-vis vest. If you can’t figure out what’s wrong with that statement you too should be wielding a clipboard
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby skypig » Sat Nov 25 2017, 06:27

Evil Twin wrote:Reminds me of the jobsworth oxygen thief at Broome that drove half way across the airfield to berate someone for not wearing their hi-vis vest. If you can’t figure out what’s wrong with that statement you too should be wielding a clipboard


“PRIVATE, I didn’t see you at camouflage training this morning!”
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hand in pants
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby hand in pants » Sat Nov 25 2017, 20:28

Have often flown wearing thongs, bear feet a couple of times as well. Wonder how the oh&s types would react to me.

In a prior life I was a truck driver, a friend had a heavy object drop on his steel cap boot. The steel cap very neatly took off the toes of that foot. Vowed then that I would never wear them.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby Pitchpull » Sat Nov 25 2017, 20:41

hand in pants wrote:Have often flown wearing thongs, bear feet a couple of times as well. Wonder how the oh&s types would react to me.

In a prior life I was a truck driver, a friend had a heavy object drop on his steel cap boot. The steel cap very neatly took off the toes of that foot. Vowed then that I would never wear them.


The theory behind steel caps is if something heavy drops on your feet you can reattach toes but you can't reattach mince meat.
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby FatBoy1971 » Sat Nov 25 2017, 20:48

Evil Twin wrote:Reminds me of the jobsworth oxygen thief at Broome that drove half way across the airfield to berate someone for not wearing their hi-vis vest. If you can’t figure out what’s wrong with that statement you too should be wielding a clipboard


I've heard that story too. I believe the exchange went something like this.

"You weren't wearing your hi-vis vest on the tarmac."

"How do you know it was me?"

"We saw you from the other side of the airfield."

"Ta-dah!!"
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hand in pants
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby hand in pants » Sun Nov 26 2017, 00:53

Pichpull, glad you said the "theory". Didn't work for my mate, off work for ages and to this day only has 1 and a half feet and 5 toes, very difficult to walk and will never be the same.
And I've gone 60 plus years without wearing hi-vis crap and a lot of this so called personal protection equipment. We used to call it common canine intercourse (common sense). A thing of the past now.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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skypig
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby skypig » Sun Nov 26 2017, 02:14

HIP

“Common sense” is now so rare it’s considered a “Super Power”.
kiwiflyer
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby kiwiflyer » Sun Nov 26 2017, 06:51

I have had this before and this shuts even the best H&S person down.

The primary navigation instrument in a aircraft is the magnetic compass, it’s a presision piece of equipment that you health and safety types wouldn’t understand anyway it’s been calibrated to read correctly with all the permanent metal in the aircraft and if the pilot jumps in wearing steel capped safety boots it’s going to read incorrectly and being the primary navigation instrument there will be inaccurate headings being flowen that could lead to an accident, so if you want that hanging over your head carry on.
And if he does go into the rules regulations and legislation that governs how a magnetic compass is to be swung to eliminate the errors and how they will have to go to CASA and get all that changed just so the pilot and crew can wear steel capped safety boots.

Once you get that discussion going it is actually good entertainment especially when they are walking away with there head hung low giving big sighs, wishing they had never opened that can of worms. :D pop;
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby heli2o » Sun Nov 26 2017, 08:26

^^^ good one ^^^

If that plan fails there are now a pretty good range of sneaker style safety shoes available from some work safety shops. I found them to be more comfortable than boots when I was required to wear safety footwear, especially when your on feet most of the day. However whenever you need to bend the end of your foot you will still find they cut into the top of your toes. Also a little bonus to have somebody tell you off for not wearing safety shoes, then have them stand on your foot while giving them a big grin that says "go eat a fat one"
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby Heliduck » Sun Nov 26 2017, 08:30

I have composite toe boots with composite lace loops, not for the compass but for going through security on RPT without having to take my boots off -they might shoot you down on that one!
More importantly, what’s a compass? Can it have an adverse affect on my GPS if I don’t have it in flight mode? :wink:
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hand in pants
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby hand in pants » Mon Nov 27 2017, 23:55

I've often wondered exactly how much of a "safety" improvement there is if you wear all of this stuff.
I don't ever remember hearing of a pilot who have his foot crushed/damaged in any way because he wasn't wearing "safety boots".
Does a hi-vis vest make you easier to see compared to say a red shirt or white for that matter.
Eye and hearing protection, yea, I can see the point in that.
Fire proof/resistant clothing, don't recall hearing of too many pilots burned at work because they had shorts on.

Common sense and self preservation has disappeared from the work place over the last 10-15 years. I don't know if it's because we are getting dumber people into the industry or weather it's just a make work job for someone who didn't make it as a pilot.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: Non safety toe boots for Heli crew

Postby skypig » Tue Nov 28 2017, 07:25

Aviation has been all about safety for a long time:
From the “walk around inspection” on your TIF, to the take off profile, etc, etc. All Safety focused.

The modern “safety systems” being inflicted on us are at best, insulting, at worst counterproductive. (Wait till the first hi vis vest goes through a tail rotor. Or the first S92 hits its TR on a rig, avoiding the dreaded “turn” that might trigger the FDM. Oh right, we don’t have to wait for that one......) Oc:=

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