Logging Of Flight Time

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sun Jan 15 2017, 15:05

Would you log engine time in the MR? If not, how can you be operating the aircraft "for the purpose of flight"?

hand in pants wrote:If the engines running, the blades are turning, I have to be there, I log it.


If that's what you want to do and you're prepared to stand in court to argue you're right when someone formally takes you to task it's your prerogative I suppose, but as it stands at the moment, it's not in accordance with the rules.
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hand in pants
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby hand in pants » Sun Jan 15 2017, 21:51

Exactly HB, and I wold go to court over it any day of the week.
Reading this thread shows that there are many and varied opinions on this subject and not just from pilots but caa as well.
As far as I see as long as I'm not logging fantasy flights like some do (and I have actual proof of that on a pilot I worked with for a short time) I'm right in what I do.
For more than the 26 or so years I've been in this industry, people have argued as to how to log hours and what definitions mean. And it will go on for a while yet.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby bob » Mon Jan 16 2017, 12:14

Here's one for the lawyers.
The sole reason for me doing a maintenance ground run today is for the purpose of a flight tomorrow 8) .
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Mag seal » Mon Jan 16 2017, 12:42

bob wrote:Here's one for the lawyers.
The sole reason for me doing a maintenance ground run today is for the purpose of a flight tomorrow 8) .



So todays run was never intended to fly.....can't log it. Tomorrow when the "Rotors engage for the purpose of flight" you can.


It's simple really. Go fly....log flight time. Balance T/R runs etc you can't and why would you want to?
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby UnObvious » Mon Jan 16 2017, 21:15

I'm in two minds on this one.

I believe that the experience minimums required for most contracts out there are insane, so on that note I would say log everything you can, because if you can do the job safely and efficiently, what does a number in a book mean?

On the other side of the coin, if you turn up saying you've got a certain amount of time on type/hours in the book and aren't flying at that level, then what's the point.

But these days all anyone seems to care about is a number in a book, not whether you can do the job or not.

There's a bloke I know that was doing a great job on a contract for a few years as he built his hours, but the government recently decided that the minimums for that job are now in line with ARENA, and so now you need 1500 hours to fly up the beach at 500ft in a 44.

Needless to say, my mate can't do the job anymore. Back to the 0.2s trying to build that magic 1500. How is a guy supposed to get ahead in this system?
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Eric Hunt
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Eric Hunt » Tue Jan 17 2017, 02:00

what does a number in a book mean?


It means that you might have been around long enough to have seen a few unusual scenarios, to which you had to apply your learned techniques. The application might work straight away, or you might need to re-work it a little, but you can then stash that away in "experience" and be a better pilot for it.

A brand-new bog-rat has only seen the canned and safe scenarios in a training school, or simple scenic flights around a fixed track, so while he might be safe and efficient in those, he has not yet had to apply the techniques to something outside the school.

So the simple answer is, "Experience is the accident you DIDN'T have." Numbers in a book usually mean that the pilot is smart enough to survive.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Tue Jan 17 2017, 02:31

UnObvious wrote:so on that note I would say log everything you can
How about "log everything you can, within the rules"?

And the sole reason for doing maintenance ground runs is to complete maintenance.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Rotorpilot » Tue Jan 17 2017, 11:15

Hugh Bosh wrote:
UnObvious wrote:so on that note I would say log everything you can
How about "log everything you can, within the rules"?

And the sole reason for doing maintenance ground runs is to complete maintenance.

For the purpose of flight.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Twistgrip » Tue Jan 17 2017, 12:15

I have to agree with Hand in Pants, as soon as you assume the command seat / command title you are "responsible" for the Aircraft.. CAR 223/224.

Be it ground running aircraft for maintenance, water washes, TR Balance etc or even better flight. You are the PIC, your the man!.

Pilot log book time in my opinion is Engine time, startup to shutdown for a flight (this goes in your log book). I personally don't count going back into the hangar in the evening to do a water wash as log book time, however your still the PIC for insurance purposes.

Skids on/off time goes into the MR for maintenance purposes, for GA anyway.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Tue Jan 17 2017, 13:15

Twistgrip wrote:I have to agree with Hand in Pants, as soon as you assume the command seat / command title you are "responsible" for the Aircraft.. CAR 223/224.

Be it ground running aircraft for maintenance, water washes, TR Balance etc or even better flight. You are the PIC, your the man!.

Pilot log book time in my opinion is Engine time, startup to shutdown for a flight (this goes in your log book). I personally don't count going back into the hangar in the evening to do a water wash as log book time, however your still the PIC for insurance purposes.

Skids on/off time goes into the MR for maintenance purposes, for GA anyway.


I think we're in agreement :) . I never said you weren't the PIC. Clearly you are and will wear the penalty if something happens. Logging flight time isn't some sort of a reward for the responsibility you undertake though. What I said was that the rules say that you can't log flight time in your log book when the rotors aren't operating for the purposes of flight. The test is whether there is a corresponding entry in the MR or not. No entry in the MR = no flight time.

I have been audited by CASA in the past and the correlation between the MR and my logbook was specifically checked.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby heli2o » Wed Jan 18 2017, 00:36

Here is a scenario. What if you move a machine, for example, from grass to concrete pad. You do it quick enough that the collective clock doesn't move. You had to daily the machine, open the MR, but close the MR with the same hours as when it was opened. Engine time might be a .1 or .2 but collective is nil.
The time can then be logged but if CASA audits your book and MR...
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Wed Jan 18 2017, 02:23

An aircraft becomes airborne and nothing is included in the MR? :?
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby DaveL » Wed Jan 18 2017, 08:48

I can't believe people are that desperate for the extra .1 or .2 you get from ground runs. In a previous job it was not uncommon to have only 50-60% of your total run time be actual flight time. We still flew 5-600 hours a year logging collective time (as the law of the land required). If I was logging that work under the Australian laws I would easily have another 1000 + hours..
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Eric Hunt
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Eric Hunt » Wed Jan 18 2017, 10:43

Here is a scenario. What if you move a machine, for example, from grass to concrete pad. You do it quick enough that the collective clock doesn't move.


The aircraft flew. You flew it. You log the engine time, which is perhaps 2 mins before liftoff and 2 mins after.

You log the engine cycle (if it's a turbine) and the maintenance release will show that the aircraft flew.

Use a bit of CDF, people! A ground run is not loggable - after all, engineers are allowed to do them but they cannot log a flight. A compass swing is able to be logged, in the military we logged half the engine time and the juniors would leap at the chance to build command time.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby rotors99 » Thu Jan 19 2017, 03:11

Hoy Eric in the past 28years of me being in the Rotory industry; Engineers have NOT ever been permitted to ground run a Rotorcraft, Stiff-wings yes, but never Rotory-wings....unless that has changed??

Logging flight time; if all else fails read the instruction manual that clearly states - 'flight time is logged from the time Rotors are engaged till they stop; for the purpose of flight'

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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby SuperF » Thu Jan 19 2017, 19:40

Or you could read the other instruction manual that clearly states:

Time in Service (flight time) - The measured time that starts the moment the helicopter leaves the ground and continues until it touches the ground at the next point of landing. The time when the helicopter is on the ground, with the engine and the rotor turning, is not included.

pop;

for those that are really concerned about that extra 0.1 what happens with engine checks etc in the ol Lama, pretty sure they can disengage the blades, so you are sitting there do your ground runs etc, and no blades turning or engaged? so you still get nothing...
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Rotorpilot » Fri Jan 20 2017, 07:34

Correct me if I'm wrong but my log book says "ICUS, Dual, command" doesn't say anything about flight time.
Therefore Log the ground run, as you are the Pilot in command.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Fri Jan 20 2017, 09:01

Rotorpilot wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but my log book says "ICUS, Dual, command" doesn't say anything about flight time.
Therefore Log the ground run, as you are the Pilot in command.
Oc:=

You're surely trolling because I just simply can't believe that you actually think that your statement has any basis in fact, legislation or reasonable practice.

Aviation is a rules based industry. We're governed by CAOs, CARs and the like. You don't get to just make sh!t up because you like the vibe of the random thought that's popped into your head.

Your log book is not the source of the law. It's a place that you record your hours flown in accordance with the law!

Can someone please refer me to the legislation that permits me to log time spent as PIC when ground running ie without getting airborne at some point between the engine(s) starting and stopping?

Anyone? No. I didn't think so.
Last edited by Hugh Bosh on Fri Jan 20 2017, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Fri Jan 20 2017, 09:10

Extract of CASR Part 61

61.345 Personal logbooks - pilots
(1) A person who holds a pilot licence, or a certificate of validation of an overseas flight crew licence that is equivalent to a pilot licence, commits an offence if the person does not keep a personal logbook in accordance with this regulation.
(2) The person must record his or her full name and date of birth in the person’s log- book.
(3) The person must, as soon as practicable after completing each flight, record the following information in the person’s logbook for the flight:
(a) the date the flight began;
(b) the type of aircraft;
(c) whether it was a single-engine or multi-engine aircraft;
(d) the aircraft’s nationality and registration marks;
(e) the take-off and landing points for the flight, and for each segment of the flight;
(f) the flight time (if any) flown in each of the following capacities:
(i) pilot in command;
(ii) co-pilot;
(iii) pilot in command under supervision; (iv) pilot receiving flight training;
(g) if the person is a flight instructor - any flight time spent exercising the privileges of his or her flight instructor rating;
(h) if the person is a flight examiner - any flight time spent exercising the privileges of his or her flight examiner rating;
(i) whether the flight was by day or night, or both;
(j) any instrument flight time;
(k) whether an instrument approach was conducted and, if so, the type of instrument
approach procedure.




If you didn't take off or land, how do you comply with this CASR if you're logging ground runs?
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Eric Hunt
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Eric Hunt » Fri Jan 20 2017, 10:59

Therefore Log the ground run, as you are the Pilot in command.


A bit like a Certain Company on bushfires during the 90s, the pilots would be due for a lunch break, but they just leave the aircraft empty with the engine running as they sit under a tree having a steak sandwich. 45 minutes, whatever, it more than paid for their lunch.

When the fires are burning, the rotors are turning, and the money's earning.

But seriously, you have to be desperate and deluded to log a ground run. Compass swings were logged as 50% of the engine time, because the bird had to be picked up and rotated to each compass point. But not a Post-C ground run.

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