Logging Of Flight Time

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
Heliduck
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Heliduck » Tue Dec 7 2010, 09:54

ROTORJOCK wrote:As has been previously said in NZ we log off the hobbs, in the 300 the hobbs starts counting when the blades are engaged and stops when disengaged, however in the 44 and JR the hobbs only ticks over when the collective is pulled, now thats a b...ch when you go out and do 2hrs of auto's and the hobbs only reads 0.9. but also has an advantage cause you only pay for the 0.9.


I call bull on this one.(Can we get a smily with a picture of a Bulls excrement?)
If you're flying any machine which requires the collective to be down far enough to disengage the Hobbs switch during an auto I suggest either the Hobbs switch needs relocating/adjusting or take it straight to an engineer before you kill yourself as it is rigged incorrectly.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby 2rotorbro » Tue Dec 7 2010, 10:34

Most micro switches that trigger a hobbs meter will/should stop the hobbs during auto rotation. The only time that you haven't got the collective down fully during auto is if you are trying to slow the RRPM, in a turn in anticpation of the extra disc loading or flying for range during auto.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Heliduck » Tue Dec 7 2010, 10:46

2rotorbro wrote:Most micro switches that trigger a hobbs meter will/should stop the hobbs during auto rotation. The only time that you haven't got the collective down fully during auto is if you are trying to slow the RRPM, in a turn in anticpation of the extra disc loading or flying for range during auto.


I still can't find my smily, so I'll take my leave.
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rotorjock
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby rotorjock » Wed Dec 8 2010, 09:46

heliduck
I call bull on this one.(Can we get a smily with a picture of a Bulls excrement?)
If you're flying any machine which requires the collective to be down far enough to disengage the Hobbs switch during an auto I suggest either the Hobbs switch needs relocating/adjusting or take it straight to an engineer before you kill yourself as it is rigged incorrectly.


This thread was actually about how different flight times were being logged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And when on the ground collective down the hobbs does not work, upon entering an auto collective goes ALL the way down!! upon the collective being put all the way down the same as if you were on the ground the hobbs will not work. now if the little micro switch is in the wrong place/needs adjustment, well like you said thats for an engineer to figure out. but as long as the controls ie collective, cyclic and pedals work if a auto is required at any stage in my flying career i really wont be worrying about the said micro switch.
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SuperF
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby SuperF » Wed Dec 8 2010, 10:27

so when you are sitting on the ground in bad wind and pull an inch of collective to stop the thump, you are getting flight time??? cool for the pilot, not so flash for the operator/owner.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Robinsondog » Wed Dec 8 2010, 11:12

i can remember being fearful for my life the very first time I did an auto. my instructor said he'd f'n kill me if next time i didn't put it right down.
i believed everything he said, like it took me three months to work out that he had a lend of me when he said, now be careful taking too much fuel out of the carby in your water check, as it's a gravity system and we don't want the carby to run our of fuel do we?
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Skywork » Wed Dec 8 2010, 11:20

14 years of Agwork and and utility work and a accurate record of collective switch against engine and it averages 20% difference.
When I first came over from NZ on fires along time ago was logging collective in log book to stay on the job longer due to the restrictive flight and duty here and casa pulled me up and told me no no engine time which instantly cost me 20% of income as helicopter was charged out by the engine hour( and I was paid on that) so for 40 hrs collective I could get 44-45 machine hrs as I was logging collective as per NZ rules so could stay in the air for longer, or so I thought, Wrong Casa spoiled the party.
Last edited by Skywork on Thu Dec 9 2010, 03:10, edited 1 time in total.
Heliduck
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Heliduck » Wed Dec 8 2010, 14:09

ROTORJOCK wrote:
heliduck
I call bull on this one.(Can we get a smily with a picture of a Bulls excrement?)
If you're flying any machine which requires the collective to be down far enough to disengage the Hobbs switch during an auto I suggest either the Hobbs switch needs relocating/adjusting or take it straight to an engineer before you kill yourself as it is rigged incorrectly.


This thread was actually about how different flight times were being logged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And when on the ground collective down the hobbs does not work, upon entering an auto collective goes ALL the way down!! upon the collective being put all the way down the same as if you were on the ground the hobbs will not work. now if the little micro switch is in the wrong place/needs adjustment, well like you said thats for an engineer to figure out. but as long as the controls ie collective, cyclic and pedals work if a auto is required at any stage in my flying career i really wont be worrying about the said micro switch.
Here's your smiley face. :D followed by Oc:=
And you can do whatever you like with your bull, teach it tricks for all that it matters.
someone always gotta start a slinging match!


So touchy after 3 months, you're going to find it tough in here.

I believe the question has been answered by a number of people - In Kiwiland they log collective time & in Oz they log rotors in motion. Excellent, thanks.

Maybe I should start a seperate thread for this topic - Regarding hobbs activation, yes the collective goes all the way down for a few seconds as an immediate response to a power loss which would activate the micro-switch & stop the hobbs, no arguement there. My point is that any machine should be rigged so that when at minimum AUW & the collective fully down the RRPM should increase in Auto maintaining a constant heading, therefore requiring a raising of the collective to control the RRPM, hence disengaging the microswitch again & starting the hobbs. Imagine the amount of adjusting it would take to rig a machine so that with the collective fully down the RRPM stayed stable at just the weight you happen to be on the day you do the auto, not to mention in 1/2hours time when you've burnt fuel. How do you control RRPM in auto, with the collective of course. It is very dificult to force the collective through the floor to control RRPM, so you must raise it slightly, correct? I know you can do turns etc to increase RRPM, but with height disappearing fast & the only clear spot directly in front of you, S-turns to maintain RRPM would not be desirable.
At the end of the day if you are aware of the fact that a machine isn't rigged correctly & you choose to fly it that's your call, but don't say you weren't warned if the worst should happen. I stand by my comments that 2 hours of autos with .9 on the clock is either a tall tale or an incorrectly rigged machine.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby skypig » Wed Dec 8 2010, 21:06

I stand by my comments that 2 hours of autos with .9 on the clock is either a tall tale or an incorrectly rigged machine.


I’d second that.
The machine should get safe RRPM in auto at minimum weight. (The mtce test flying graph ensures this, and requires flying weight to be in-putted)). So unless they were solo autos with MT fuel tanks and no turns.....
Also most machines come down quicker than they go up, plus taxi and positioning.....

This thread was actually about how different flight times were being logged!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And should have been finished by post Number two (lord flashheart)

Rotor start to rotor stop for the purposes of going flying (no ground runs).

It is in the legislation but CASA has put it together on their website @ http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?W ... c=PC_90100

The “pilots”? That don’t know/can’t read/wish they were different, the rules is amazing.


SP
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Robinsondog » Wed Dec 8 2010, 22:58

My point is that any machine should be rigged so that when at minimum AUW & the collective fully down the RRPM should increase in Auto maintaining a constant heading, therefore requiring a raising of the collective to control the RRPM, hence disengaging the microswitch again & starting the hobbs. Imagine the amount of adjusting it would take to rig a machine so that with the collective fully down the RRPM stayed stable at just the weight you happen to be on the day you do the auto,


not my interpretation, i think you better read the manuals. but the answer is here


The machine should get safe RRPM in auto at minimum weight. (The mtce test flying graph ensures this, and requires flying weight to be in-putted)).


i think minimum weight is found somehwere near here as below, there is always a minimum cabin weight isn't there? and the manufacturere and casa have to account/allow for dumbnuts what run out of fuel.

unless they were solo autos with MT fuel tanks and no turns


my instructor, i think,???? was able to rely on me putting the collective right down when he had finished with me, so as long as the machine was rigged correctly where it wouldn't over speed or underspeed in a straight line i might have had half a chance when the engine quit. what else can an inexperienced pilot or casa rely on? things get a bit blurry when real emergencies come by.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Les Norton » Thu Dec 9 2010, 01:16

From what I remember when I use to fly R22's (A while ago now...) The Hobbs meter started running once you had oil pressure and was not connected to the collective at all. All the R44's that I have flowen had both a Hobbs, once again activated by oil pressure, as well as a collective meter activated by a micro switch. And all the bigger helicopters I have flowen since, you keep a DFR, recording start up and shut down as well as all the legs in between. So no matter what way you look at it if you are doing auto's you still have a record of engine time and that is what you can put in your log book.

But at the end of the day... over your flying life, how long are you in auto for??? 0.5,1, 2 Hrs!!! Is it really going to make a difference to your log book???

Come on fella's, just enjoy your flying, and don't sweat the small stuff :D :D :D
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Rotorpilot » Sat Jan 14 2017, 14:55

So wouldn't ground running constitute as for the "purpose of flight" as you are prepping the machine to fly? Either warm up, balancing, waiting for passengers, fault finding etc is that not skills gained for a new pilot understanding and working with engineers on the machine.
And secondly isn't it PIC Pilot in command? says nothing about flight time or for only when aircraft is airborne? So wouldn't ground running need a pilot in command as another law states something about unattended running aircraft?
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hand in pants
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby hand in pants » Sat Jan 14 2017, 20:58

Here is a question.

You are ground running a machine for maintenance purposes, unfortunately, a person walks into the spinning tail rotor and is killed. Who do you think will be held responsible?
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sun Jan 15 2017, 01:21

hand in pants wrote:Here is a question.

You are ground running a machine for maintenance purposes, unfortunately, a person walks into the spinning tail rotor and is killed. Who do you think will be held responsible?


You would, depending on the circumstances of course. But it's not flight time so it doesn't get logged. The logging of flight time has nothing to do with duty of care, culpability, responsibility or whether you just feel like you should be able log flight time because the rotors are turning. It's the same reason why fixed wing LAMEs can't log PIC for doing ground runs or taxiing aircraft for maintenance, even if they hold a licence.

Anyone engaged in this practice will be in for a rough time if they're unfortunate enough to have an accident and an insurance company takes them to task when they discover that PIC had been logged and counted towards some of their silly experience prerequisites. Similarly if a client discovers you've been logging hours you're not entitled to log with regard to contract minimums.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby SuperF » Sun Jan 15 2017, 04:28

we log collective time, as it is just easier...

For those of you who think that it may be a small % of actual time think again. A couple of jobs we have done in the JR over the years

Went spraying from 6-10, didn't shut down once, only 2.0 on the collective, so thats only 50% of running time.
We were doing some Civil Defence support, flying things and people in and out of different areas, aircraft running from 9 to about 6, only managed 3.9 collective time.
Short 6 min tourist flights, takes as long or longer to get the pax out, then in as what we fly, i only ever manage to get about 5, 6 minute flights into an hour, so that is 0.5 for every 1.0 of running time. If anyone can tell me how to unload 4 people, and then load 4 people in a JR in less than 6 minutes, can you please let me know, as an average over 40 years we haven't managed to get it done any quicker...
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Firefish » Sun Jan 15 2017, 06:06

If you operate under CAO 48.1 then you are only required to log flight time. Flight time is when a heavier than air aircraft moves under its own power.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sun Jan 15 2017, 06:25

fly in the sky wrote:Also I bet if you ask a CASA flight operations inspector if you should enter ground running time in your Flight and Duty times as flight time he would answer in the affirmative.


Unless you're specifically talking about time on the ground when the engines are running before a takeoff or after a landing i.e. 'for the purposes of flight' (which is not clear from your post), I'd bet they wouldn't.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby agpilot7 » Sun Jan 15 2017, 08:57

4 pages 77 posts for logging flight time cant be serious !!
WHAT are you putting on the MR ?
I would imagine if you are working for a commercial operator the MR will be flight time and if CASA should ask, I would be interested to know how you can explain "FLYING" more hours than are on the MR :roll:
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby hand in pants » Sun Jan 15 2017, 09:55

HB, yes, you would be held responsible as the pilot in command of the helicopter involved in the death of a person. CAA would label you as the pilot in command, legal system would label you as pilot in command, insurance company would label you as pilot in command.
Just because it didn't take off doesn't mean you aren't responsible for the helicopter. Personally, if I have to be in it at the controls ensuring that it doesn't go anywhere it's not meant to go, I'm in command. If the engines running, the blades are turning, I have to be there, I log it.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sun Jan 15 2017, 12:42

Would you log engine time in the MR? If not, how can you be operating the aircraft for the purposes of flight?

hand in pants wrote:If the engines running, the blades are turning, I have to be there, I log it.


If that's what you want to do and you're prepared to stand in court to argue you're right it's your prerogative I suppose, but as it stands at the moment, it's not in accordance with the rules.

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