Logging Of Flight Time

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
Skidbiter2
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Skidbiter2 » Fri Apr 23 2010, 13:49

harold wrote:I'd say the whole argument is pretty pointless really! For most of us, we would be lucky to do 1 hour a year ground running any machine so the argument is pretty superfluous really. As for an audit, if CASA were to quivvel over a .2 entry, say you brought it up to the hover....end of argument! I agree with the other posters who state if the rotors are engaged, then you as PIC are solely responsible for the machine and its operation....I would happily log the time but as I said, the amount of time we're talking about here is so inconsequential at days end.


Well that may be true if you are a point A to B and shut down type pilot, but what about Ag, or many other jobs where you are sitting running on the ground, waiting on pax to do their thing, ( e.g soil sampling etc), that can add up to quite a difference between air and running time at the end of the day. e.g last year I did 1100 hours run time charged to the customer but only 800 odd air time, so it adds up over the year in some cases, but I only logged the 800 odd.

I only log air time because thats the rules in NZ, hard to prove at an audit where the extra few hundred hours came from IF the CAA auditor compares the aircraft tec log to your log book and you have been logging run time!
But in Canada it can depend who you work for, some log air some log run time, but most seem to log air time. So I guess it depends what country and company you are in, you follow the rules to suit.


harold wrote:The suggestions about checking hours (ZK-BIC) for our friends across the pond is a sound proposition to any prospective employer. Make a few enquiries; might save some grief down the track! I know a pilot who had 500 extra hours he obtained whilst operating as a groundee for an AG operator - his view was "I signed the MR each day so I can log the hours"! Turned out the real figure he could rightfully log was 3! Amazingly, next day his logbook was stolen from his car - Surprise! Surprise!



Hmmm.... I think those pens work all around the world don't they?? So I don't see the need to sling the sh1t in one direction! :roll:
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby AgRattler » Sat Apr 24 2010, 02:38

I agree with Mr Skid nibbler. All good if ya a tourist pilot , A to B type pilot but as an Ag pilot you spend alot of time over the course of a year sitting on the ground running ie ; between loads , talking to cockys , having a leak/brew/changing nozzles etc.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Poo Pushing Pilot » Sun Apr 25 2010, 21:27

I also agree with Mr skid bitter, depending on the type of work the difference can be quite significant. Have just added up some engine times for myself from 1st January till now. Engine running time 291 vs Collective 161. Im no star mathmation (not sure if I can even spell it) but I am pretty sure that is a lot more than 10%. I'm happy to just log the flight time, as this is representative of your "experience". The liability thing you could drag out for ever, maybe we should all start logging time when we are hangaring the machines as well, in case we stick a blade into the wall in the process. At the end of the day it dosn't really matter what everyone is logging, as long as they are all doing the same, to keep everyone on an even keel, which is not the case.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby oneliner » Mon Apr 26 2010, 01:17

If people in NZ are pissed about the rule, then do something about it. I have written to the CAA
regarding this. The more people that bring it to their attention, the more chance of having this
rule changed.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby harold » Mon Apr 26 2010, 05:50

That might be the case in NZ but here in Australia, the guy doing the ag work would log the entire time the a/c was running including loading time etc. I know of not one who would not!
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Skidbiter2 » Mon Apr 26 2010, 11:34

harold wrote:That might be the case in NZ but here in Australia, the guy doing the ag work would log the entire time the a/c was running including loading time etc. I know of not one who would not!



Good for you! :lol:


oneliner wrote:If people in NZ are pissed about the rule, then do something about it. I have written to the CAA
regarding this. The more people that bring it to their attention, the more chance of having this
rule changed.



Who said anyone was pissed about it??
If you think that you are gaining valuable experience by holding the controls whilst going nowhere at idle, then go for it, log the time!
For me, I don't really care about the time difference, in this game its more about who you and how you fly, than how many hours you have in your book.
In this day and age, I think you should be happy to have a flying job at all!
But hey, if you like banging your head against walls, then go for it... write to CAA :D
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby LivinAtLarge » Mon Apr 26 2010, 12:04

Many moons ago when I was flying tours. A lot of the time The Jet Ranger/Long Ranger would sit on the pad at idle for sometimes half an hour at a time. with no one at the controls.

It was cheaper to burn the fuel in between tours than keep burning through the cycle counts.

Does that mean I could of logged all that time, even though I was inside in the aircon signing people up and giving briefs??? After all I was intending on flying.

Sometimes I would find myself sitting at the controls just to listen to the XM radio... should I of logged that??? :roll:

Well I did not, I logged of the hobbs. Mainly because I was too lazy to keep track of the actual running time.

I think deep down you know what you should log and what really should not be logged. 5 minutes in between landing and taking off again.... fair enough. 20 minutes sitting on the ground picking your nose while the rotors are running then NO.

Just my 5 cents worth on what appears a well debated subject.

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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby oneliner » Mon Apr 26 2010, 22:39

Skidbiter2 wrote:Who said anyone was pissed about it??


I reckon some of the posters here unhappy that they can't log the time between loads etc.


Skidbiter2 wrote:in this game its more about who you and how you fly, than how many hours you have in your book.


Try going for an interview with less hours than required and saying "but I flew Joe Bloggs, or, I fly really well". See how far that gets ya.

Now, I'm not too fussed weather I log the time or not. I don't need the hours. However, there is a difference between being in command
while getting another load in the spray tank or landing on logs in the bush waiting for pax to embark/disembark compared with sitting on
a nice HLS listening to your ipod. One can't help feeling a bit ripped.

How do you word the "rule'' for logging time without opening it up for guys and gals sitting for a prolonged period with the blades spinning
because it is not economical to shut down?
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby black duck » Tue Apr 27 2010, 01:37

Certainly opened up a tin pf worms! Maybe some form of percentage might work, similar to logging sea time, inshore and sheltered waters are logged at 50%,so ground runs, when involved with flying not maintenance could then be logged in a similar way. It’s an idea, didn’t say it was a good one but! :?
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Tue Apr 27 2010, 10:09

Sounds like an excellent topic for Peter Holstein and AOPA's new committee to get their teeth into?

http://www.bladeslapper.com/content/bb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2438&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Peter Holstein
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Peter Holstein » Wed Apr 28 2010, 01:15

Hugh has passed the ball and here is the definition directly from the CASA website:

Flight Time
means, in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft, the total time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest after landing. This is synonymous with 'chock to chock', 'block to block' or 'push back to block' time.
In the case of a helicopter, whenever helicopter rotors are engaged for the purpose of a flight, the time will be included in the flight time.

Like a lot of what we do, this definition is really open to interpretation:

Looking at the example in a former post, where the pilot on a job has landed and is waiting for a load of passengers etc, it could rightly be argued that whilst he is sitting there waiting for the passengers with the machine running and rotors still engaged, then he could log the time as they are engaged for the purpose of flight. If the pilot were to vacate the aircraft and leave it running (as per another example), then I suggest he cannot be acting as pilot in command and shouldn't log the time he is away from the controls. In a nutshell, it comes down to the integrity of the pilot when considering logging of flight times.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby CYHeli » Wed Apr 28 2010, 01:50

I have an electronic log book and log maintenance flights under that category. I have 2.6 hrs of maintenance in 400 hrs, so in reality less than 1% of my flying. Now this is not going to add much to my total time, but when an operator says to me that this a/c is due an Instrument 8 check (or whatever) I can at least say, yeah I've done compass swings, track and balance, etc and they've seen it in my log book.

Most companies though would probably want an experienced pilot doing maintenance flights, especially on turbines as they need someone who has a good scan and knows the numbers. Even in pistons you have to watch for the oil pressure temp to change before engaging the clutch on an R22. No good just hitting the starter and clutch and then notice there's no oil pressure happening. (I saw this once after a 100 hourly when the pilot forgot to check if oil had been added prior to hitting the starter! Always remember to do a thorough walk around after a service... The engine ran for about 15 -20 secs before the gauge was checked, :shock: the motor was stopped and then we waited for the clutch to disengage.)

So logging of maintenance flights do have a purpose.

I can see where Kiwi pilots come from with their different recording system/rules, but at the end of the day when a pilot goes for an interview, a smart Chief Pilot sees beyond the hours and can read what real experience a pilot has and what they are capable of. The same argument has been applied to those who fly laps of The Rock, do they have 800 hours, or the same hour 800 times? They have 800 hours of different W&B, diff Wx, 800 hours of T/O and landing, radio, etc, etc.

It's all about pilot ability and situational awareness ( I know that over simplifies it ) but you can see where I'm coming from. Look at the hours that Ferrari Flyer got in Cananda. That's worth so much more than flying around The Rock, but government contracts only look at hours. To the rest of GA, his experience means more than his hours do.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Poo Pushing Pilot » Thu Apr 29 2010, 00:50

The engine ran for about 15 -20 secs before the gauge was checked, the motor was stopped and then we waited for the clutch to disengage.)


I don't get what the clutch being engaged or not had to do with anything???
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby oneliner » Thu Apr 29 2010, 03:50

CYHeli wrote:at the end of the day when a pilot goes for an interview, a smart Chief Pilot sees beyond the hours and can read what real experience a pilot has and what they are capable of.


Too true. I would have a 1000 hour bush or Ag. pilot over a 1000 hour scenic pilot any day. Although
tourism is a good place to test that shiny new license...for a while.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby CYHeli » Thu Apr 29 2010, 04:34

Poo Pushing Pilot wrote:
The engine ran for about 15 -20 secs before the gauge was checked, the motor was stopped and then we waited for the clutch to disengage.)


I don't get what the clutch being engaged or not had to do with anything???

What I was told at the time was that it is important to watch for oil pressure rise prior to engaging clutch.
The second point (at the time) was that the clutch engaging creates extra drag on the motor (hence set 55% RPM) that without lube will (eventually) cause damage. But I don't know how long this will take. It might have been a panicked reaction by staff on the day who saw $$ in front their eyes.
The flight manual says to engage clutch immediately after start and oil pressure within 30 secs, but I wasn't going to argue on the day. (Blame the hangar rat...)

The point I was trying to make was that a more experienced pilot will have a better scan, SA, etc when doing maintenance flights and do a really good walk-around after ginger beers have been at it.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Capt Hollywood » Thu Apr 29 2010, 07:59

C'mon fellas, I think we're overanalysing this issue just a bit. Just log engine time and you'll be fine in Aus.

During a CASA ramp check and subsequent company audit I once asked a FOI about logging hours. He said CASA can't really police the logging of pilot hours as they can't watch every flight, it's up to the pilot to be honest with how much they log. CASA's concern lies with the issue of large differences between MR time and 'flight' time. Should they come across this during an audit they will want to be satisfied that the MR hours are correct and not being underlogged.

CH 8)
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby pohm1 » Thu Apr 29 2010, 08:05

...and if you have a dream about an AW139, don't forget to log it as twin time!

P1
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby robmitch » Tue Dec 7 2010, 07:25

So what is the normal practice for R22's in Schools in Australia - Log engine time, pay for engine time?
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Charbuque » Tue Dec 7 2010, 08:04

Yes as the rotors start with the engine. On 300s we log rotor start to engine off since there is a bit of warm up required before rotor engagement.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby rotorjock » Tue Dec 7 2010, 08:56

As has been previously said in NZ we log off the hobbs, in the 300 the hobbs starts counting when the blades are engaged and stops when disengaged, however in the 44 and JR the hobbs only ticks over when the collective is pulled, now thats a b...ch when you go out and do 2hrs of auto's and the hobbs only reads 0.9. but also has an advantage cause you only pay for the 0.9.

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