Logging Of Flight Time

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
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Porno
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Porno » Sun Apr 18 2010, 13:34

Fly in the Sky,
You might be getting Duty time (working hours) mixed up with flight time. And besides, you don't need to sign the MR to do a "ground run on a machine".

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Poo Pushing Pilot
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Poo Pushing Pilot » Mon Apr 19 2010, 01:52

Ok so engine time seems to be pretty standard in Australia, but every single NZ operation (appart from in an R 22 where engine time is maintenance time)
that I know of log skids off to skids on.
So tip to all employers, a 1000 hour NZ pilot should be worth more than a 1000 hour Aus one.
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Mon Apr 19 2010, 04:54

All Around Aus wrote:So I am curious... while ground running ie rotors turning but NOT for the purpose of flight, as per CASA regs, unloggable time. Who is liable for a fool walking into the tail rotor etc. at this time. I assume this is the pilots fault as everything always is.

Being called the pilot in command is handing you responsibility which in court can send you down a very black hole if something major were to happen. Logging this time is the payoff for accepting resposibility.


You are responsible for the safe operation of an aircraft, even without logging PIC - plenty of FW maintainers taxy their aircraft around for ground runs but can't log anything because they're not pilots. There is no 'payoff for accepting responsibility' as you put it. Your 'pay off' is the wage that you get paid (let's not get into wages here... :roll: )

It's simple and CASA is quite clear on it';
In the case of a helicopter, whenever helicopter rotors are engaged for the purpose of a flight, the time will be included in the flight time.
if you're operating the aircraft to go flying, you can log rotor start to rotor stop. If you're not going flying, it doesn't get logged.
Last edited by Hugh Bosh on Mon Apr 19 2010, 06:53, edited 5 times in total.
oneliner
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby oneliner » Mon Apr 19 2010, 04:55

It sucks to have to log collective time instead of rotor in motion (In NZ). My employer has made up a kind of statutory declaration
to go in our log books to state that fact. Don't know if it will actually help with possible future employers, but worth a go.

If CAA could sort their s--t out and agree one way or the other might be a start. Left hand doesn't know what the right is
doing! One definition contradicts another. While they are at it, make it compulsory for collective clocks in all machines...
but that's another thread.

Finished my little hissy fit now.

Hey Ferrari, you drink like a girl.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Heli » Mon Apr 19 2010, 07:40

Hmmm: so who's logging the 0.5 on this little run, then 8)

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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby FerrariFlyer » Mon Apr 19 2010, 09:44

oneliner wrote:Hey Ferrari, you drink like a girl.


Well, drinking that NZ girly, watery beer has side effects on people! What can I say?

And Heli...nice shot, well asked. Don't let the lack of main rotor blades deter anyone from trying to log something. The 'for the purpose of flight' is but a mere guideline. I am sure you could persuade even the most difficult and hard to please CASA FOI that you seriously had the intent to become airborne!!! 8)
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby DJ » Mon Apr 19 2010, 11:43

I really don't think there is much of a difference as far as being a better pilot at 1000 hours collective time than you would at 1000 hours engine time. Nothing much changed for me going from 1000 hours to 1200 hours engine time. I dare say from 1000 to 2000 is a fair difference but not 10% worth. I highly doubt an employer would be worried about a 10% difference.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby fly in the sky » Mon Apr 19 2010, 11:52

Cool photo, it would be great to see how the start happens minus all the blade weight, I guess it wouldn't be any different, probably just gets to self sustaining a whole lot easier. And I guess the torque limit when you spool up wouldn't be a problem either as not much resistance.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby choppermech1986 » Mon Apr 19 2010, 12:06

Isn't it just 1 to 3?
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Lord Mount » Wed Apr 21 2010, 02:47

Poo Pushing Pilot wrote:So tip to all employers, a 1000 hour NZ pilot should be worth more than a 1000 hour Aus one.


Here is another tip for employers.. check out how many hours in the kiwi log book have really been flown by asking previous employers as there are very few entry level jobs available in NZ. It's quite amazing how much time gets done in ZK-BIC whilst working as a loader or just before heading off to work tuna boats or Australia.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby CYHeli » Wed Apr 21 2010, 09:12

Lord Mount wrote: ZK-BIC

Is this similar to BIC pens? !!
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby dmfoqs » Thu Apr 22 2010, 07:25

I have had a few heated discussions with CASA regarding the logging of engine / flight time and i am yet to find one that once i state that even if the helicopter does not leave the ground and the pilot, and i mean a suitably qualified endorsed pilot is at the controls and some one is hurt or an incident happens, then the pilot can log all the time the rotors are turning. Because if the s#!t hits the fan and something goes wrong, the guy or girl sitting in the seat is classified as the pilot in command. So log it all.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Porno » Thu Apr 22 2010, 08:12

PJ,
then maybe there should be provision for it in the log book...? Or instead of arguing about it with CASA, then just write it in... (but in my view, the log book is for flight time).

However in saying all that, I see your point to the discussion. You are in command so whether you pick up the machine into the hover or not it should be logged in the "pilot in command" column of your log book. And besides, over a career span the amount of time spent running on the ground in not much really.

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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Hugh Bosh » Thu Apr 22 2010, 14:02

Nothing like making up your own rules is there...
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby FerrariFlyer » Thu Apr 22 2010, 14:57

In black and white for those who might think they can log what they want:

Definitions

Flight Time
means, in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft, the total time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest after landing. This is synonymous with 'chock to chock', 'block to block' or 'push back to block' time.
In the case of a helicopter, whenever helicopter rotors are engaged for the purpose of a flight, the time will be included in the flight time.

This is from a quick search from the CASA website that took around 5 seconds. The link is pasted below.

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?W ... c=PC_90100

As a side note, I checked my logbook the other night and in almost 5 years of flying I have logged no more than 30hrs of actual maintenance test flights and I would estimate no more than 15-20hrs for ground runs (which were not logged). I would hardly say that such a low number is worth logging, nor worth getting caught logging if you were to be audited.

Requirement to hold a log book

A pilot must keep a personal log book [Civil Aviation Regulation (CAR) 5.51]
A log book consists of a number of pages permanently bound together in such a way that pages may not be replaced or removed;
An electronic record is not acceptable as a log book, however, a computer printout bound together in the form of a log book and maintained up to date is acceptable;
All manual entries to the log book must be made in permanent ink;
This log book is to be produced to the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) when requested;
Falsification of a log book is a criminal offence;
There is no regulatory requirement to carry a personal log book on a flight.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby oneliner » Thu Apr 22 2010, 20:20

That's why I like you FF. I don't have to do any homework or look anything up, I just
wait for you to post it.

Now that I'm back in Kiwi land, learn the CAA rules would ya. And make it snappy!!
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby gimbal » Thu Apr 22 2010, 23:17

Seems pretty clear from the above post about CASA's take on things. It's a pity it's out of line with the rest of the world where flight time is collective up time.

If I landed on a couple of logs in the bush, or a rock, or a glacier, shut down and then it slipped off and fell on someone while it was being loaded, who's fault is it? Mine of course, I'm PIC. Does that mean I should be logging flight time? Of course not, because I'm not flying!

To put it another way, if you're going to log run time and you want some hours then go start up a big machine and sit on the pad running it for a while. All you will pay for the 'flight time' is the jet or avgas you need to pour in every couple of hours!

Once you have enough hours to get the job you want it's all quite irelevant anyway I would suggest.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Trailing edge » Thu Apr 22 2010, 23:45

I don’t understand all the talk about the relationship between logging time and the consequences of being the PIC. i.e.

“Because if the s#%t hits the fan and something goes wrong, the guy or girl sitting in the seat is classified as the pilot in command. So log it all.”

The two have nothing to do with each other.

Let me tell you that it doesn’t matter whether you or CASA classify you as the PIC or not, if you are sufficiently negligent in your actions you are liable and that goes for both civil and criminal jurisdictions.

A log book represents experience. Otherwise you have the absurd situation whereby an individual could gather sufficient “time” to upgrade various licences etc. without ever leaving the ground.

TE
Last edited by Trailing edge on Fri Apr 23 2010, 00:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby harold » Fri Apr 23 2010, 00:15

I'd say the whole argument is pretty pointless really! For most of us, we would be lucky to do 1 hour a year ground running any machine so the argument is pretty superfluous really. As for an audit, if CASA were to quivvel over a .2 entry, say you brought it up to the hover....end of argument! I agree with the other posters who state if the rotors are engaged, then you as PIC are solely responsible for the machine and its operation....I would happily log the time but as I said, the amount of time we're talking about here is so inconsequential at days end.
The suggestions about checking hours (ZK-BIC) for our friends across the pond is a sound proposition to any prospective employer. Make a few enquiries; might save some grief down the track! I know a pilot who had 500 extra hours he obtained whilst operating as a groundee for an AG operator - his view was "I signed the MR each day so I can log the hours"! Turned out the real figure he could rightfully log was 3! Amazingly, next day his logbook was stolen from his car - Surprise! Surprise!
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Re: Logging Of Flight Time

Postby Craskey » Fri Apr 23 2010, 00:43

Hello All,

While I may be new to all this it seems as though some of you want to get into the 'nitty gritty' of logging all hours possible due to the pilot being responsible for the aircraft and personnel concerned. This is great except a pilot isn't paid for each hour of flight, are they? Their role extends far beyond sitting in the Big seat and yanking a stick a or two and the employer would think much the same; If you're not flying do you just go home? I doubt it. It all comes down to 'Duty of Care' whether you're sitting in the seat or not.

My Two cents.

Cheers,
When all else fails, harden the f@#k up and try again.

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