Winch Rescue gone wrong
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Fill-level
- Gold Wings
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Evil Twin
- 3rd Dan
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Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
Oh dear, that was a bit of a mess
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Skid Marks
- Silver Wings
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Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
There's an interview with the crew here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ViHPn ... f_5lCNBjHE
Interview kicks off at around 4:15.
Interview kicks off at around 4:15.
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rotors99
- 1st Dan
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Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
I can see my breakfast sprayed all of over this topic........I bet the poor old Lady was talking to GOD on the great white phone during this event 
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Evil Twin
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Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
rotors99 wrote:I can see my breakfast sprayed all of over this topic........I bet the poor old Lady was talking to GOD on the great white phone during this event
Talking to who? The invisible man that lives in the sky?
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FerrariFlyer
- 4th Dan
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Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
Evil Twin wrote:rotors99 wrote:I can see my breakfast sprayed all of over this topic........I bet the poor old Lady was talking to GOD on the great white phone during this event
Talking to who? The invisible man that lives in the sky?
That's no way to talk about adult imaginary friends in the sky ET tsk tsk
Now, who was that who recently mentioned that phrase adult imaginary friends...
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Evil Twin
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rotors99
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Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
FerrariFlyer wrote:Evil Twin wrote:rotors99 wrote:I can see my breakfast sprayed all of over this topic........I bet the poor old Lady was talking to GOD on the great white phone during this event
Talking to who? The invisible man that lives in the sky?
That's no way to talk about adult imaginary friends in the sky ET tsk tsk
Now, who was that who recently mentioned that phrase adult imaginary friends...
It's been a couple of decades+ since I was last sick, but I do clearly recall screaming 'Ow god' with my head down the dunny wishing for a positive reply
it is a pun, that some folks obviously missed 
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ozloadie
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Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
Just finished watching the media conference and several times the footage.
A tag or safety line was attached by one of the ground persons, however it appears to have been anchored somewhere between the shoulder and midriff position on the litter - it is supposed to be anchored at the head or foot of the litter to remove any axis that the stretcher can rotate around at all, and tension maintained at the ground end until the tag line is released This was not managed properly by both the ground person attaching the line and the winch operator who should be double checking the rigging of any load; at that height and visibility and daylight, it should have been obvious that the line was not attached in the correct position.
It is also possible that the same view may have been available to the right hand pilot, however if he is the flying pilot at the time, he's referencing in the hover, or might just not have recognised it due to lack opportunity or his awareness of winching requirements.
The crew description of their technique sounds as if they have not been trained completely in all of the options to dampen the rotation of any rate:
Any rotation at all should be dealt with immediately, recognising that an increase in spin rate is an indication at that time it is increasing a critical situation.
Dampening techniques include:
Low hoist height:
A crewman in attendance with the litter;
Winch operator using boot to alter the amplitude of the wire to dissipate the energy in the cable; this was observed in the footage.
Pilot input in vertical ascent/descent or forward/rear tracking as available to vector energy in the cable using load momentum; this was observed in the footage also.
A third method is to use the foliage of shrubs and crowns of low trees as a soft obstruction to the rotating litter to slow it down and possibly arrest the rotation completely; this method was not observed and during the media conference was not indicated. There were patches of thick shrubs and foliage in the area close to the location of the incident.
These methods are taught to Australian Defence Force RW crews and they work.
All of these can be rehearsed or practised during training and check rides without a live patient.
I was involved in flight testing several models of litters and the problem of spinning was always a consideration to accounted for, hence the introduction of the tag line.
The use of a cover over the patient and litter at times increased the spinning potential of the unit, however all litters did not perform the same way.
It requires testing and training with each brand and type to detect their idiosyncrasies, and hover heights over a full range of the winch cable length.
The last documented occurrence of a violent litter rotation in the U.S. that I'm aware of described the patients condition on arrival as "the total emptying of the patients
cranial cavity contents was a consequence of the event".
The tag line must be robust as well and maintained and audited.
The patient was lucky this time.
Steve
A tag or safety line was attached by one of the ground persons, however it appears to have been anchored somewhere between the shoulder and midriff position on the litter - it is supposed to be anchored at the head or foot of the litter to remove any axis that the stretcher can rotate around at all, and tension maintained at the ground end until the tag line is released This was not managed properly by both the ground person attaching the line and the winch operator who should be double checking the rigging of any load; at that height and visibility and daylight, it should have been obvious that the line was not attached in the correct position.
It is also possible that the same view may have been available to the right hand pilot, however if he is the flying pilot at the time, he's referencing in the hover, or might just not have recognised it due to lack opportunity or his awareness of winching requirements.
The crew description of their technique sounds as if they have not been trained completely in all of the options to dampen the rotation of any rate:
Any rotation at all should be dealt with immediately, recognising that an increase in spin rate is an indication at that time it is increasing a critical situation.
Dampening techniques include:
Low hoist height:
A crewman in attendance with the litter;
Winch operator using boot to alter the amplitude of the wire to dissipate the energy in the cable; this was observed in the footage.
Pilot input in vertical ascent/descent or forward/rear tracking as available to vector energy in the cable using load momentum; this was observed in the footage also.
A third method is to use the foliage of shrubs and crowns of low trees as a soft obstruction to the rotating litter to slow it down and possibly arrest the rotation completely; this method was not observed and during the media conference was not indicated. There were patches of thick shrubs and foliage in the area close to the location of the incident.
These methods are taught to Australian Defence Force RW crews and they work.
All of these can be rehearsed or practised during training and check rides without a live patient.
I was involved in flight testing several models of litters and the problem of spinning was always a consideration to accounted for, hence the introduction of the tag line.
The use of a cover over the patient and litter at times increased the spinning potential of the unit, however all litters did not perform the same way.
It requires testing and training with each brand and type to detect their idiosyncrasies, and hover heights over a full range of the winch cable length.
The last documented occurrence of a violent litter rotation in the U.S. that I'm aware of described the patients condition on arrival as "the total emptying of the patients
cranial cavity contents was a consequence of the event".
The tag line must be robust as well and maintained and audited.
The patient was lucky this time.
Steve
Keep it flying, don't quit!
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havick
- 4th Dan
- Posts: 1300
- Joined: Jun 2007
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
ozloadie wrote:Just finished watching the media conference and several times the footage.
A tag or safety line was attached by one of the ground persons, however it appears to have been anchored somewhere between the shoulder and midriff position on the litter - it is supposed to be anchored at the head or foot of the litter to remove any axis that the stretcher can rotate around at all, and tension maintained at the ground end until the tag line is released This was not managed properly by both the ground person attaching the line and the winch operator who should be double checking the rigging of any load; at that height and visibility and daylight, it should have been obvious that the line was not attached in the correct position.
It is also possible that the same view may have been available to the right hand pilot, however if he is the flying pilot at the time, he's referencing in the hover, or might just not have recognised it due to lack opportunity or his awareness of winching requirements.
The crew description of their technique sounds as if they have not been trained completely in all of the options to dampen the rotation of any rate:
Any rotation at all should be dealt with immediately, recognising that an increase in spin rate is an indication at that time it is increasing a critical situation.
Dampening techniques include:
Low hoist height:
A crewman in attendance with the litter;
Winch operator using boot to alter the amplitude of the wire to dissipate the energy in the cable; this was observed in the footage.
Pilot input in vertical ascent/descent or forward/rear tracking as available to vector energy in the cable using load momentum; this was observed in the footage also.
A third method is to use the foliage of shrubs and crowns of low trees as a soft obstruction to the rotating litter to slow it down and possibly arrest the rotation completely; this method was not observed and during the media conference was not indicated. There were patches of thick shrubs and foliage in the area close to the location of the incident.
These methods are taught to Australian Defence Force RW crews and they work.
All of these can be rehearsed or practised during training and check rides without a live patient.
I was involved in flight testing several models of litters and the problem of spinning was always a consideration to accounted for, hence the introduction of the tag line.
The use of a cover over the patient and litter at times increased the spinning potential of the unit, however all litters did not perform the same way.
It requires testing and training with each brand and type to detect their idiosyncrasies, and hover heights over a full range of the winch cable length.
The last documented occurrence of a violent litter rotation in the U.S. that I'm aware of described the patients condition on arrival as "the total emptying of the patients
cranial cavity contents was a consequence of the event".
The tag line must be robust as well and maintained and audited.
The patient was lucky this time.
Steve
Lucky is an understatement
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel."
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Nitram
- New Member
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robaussie99
- Gold Wings
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- Joined: Oct 2010
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
ozloadie wrote:Just finished watching the media conference and several times the footage.
A tag or safety line was attached by one of the ground persons, however it appears to have been anchored somewhere between the shoulder and midriff position on the litter - it is supposed to be anchored at the head or foot of the litter to remove any axis that the stretcher can rotate around at all, and tension maintained at the ground end until the tag line is released This was not managed properly by both the ground person attaching the line and the winch operator who should be double checking the rigging of any load; at that height and visibility and daylight, it should have been obvious that the line was not attached in the correct position.
It is also possible that the same view may have been available to the right hand pilot, however if he is the flying pilot at the time, he's referencing in the hover, or might just not have recognised it due to lack opportunity or his awareness of winching requirements.
The crew description of their technique sounds as if they have not been trained completely in all of the options to dampen the rotation of any rate:
Any rotation at all should be dealt with immediately, recognising that an increase in spin rate is an indication at that time it is increasing a critical situation.
Dampening techniques include:
Low hoist height:
A crewman in attendance with the litter;
Winch operator using boot to alter the amplitude of the wire to dissipate the energy in the cable; this was observed in the footage.
Pilot input in vertical ascent/descent or forward/rear tracking as available to vector energy in the cable using load momentum; this was observed in the footage also.
A third method is to use the foliage of shrubs and crowns of low trees as a soft obstruction to the rotating litter to slow it down and possibly arrest the rotation completely; this method was not observed and during the media conference was not indicated. There were patches of thick shrubs and foliage in the area close to the location of the incident.
These methods are taught to Australian Defence Force RW crews and they work.
All of these can be rehearsed or practised during training and check rides without a live patient.
I was involved in flight testing several models of litters and the problem of spinning was always a consideration to accounted for, hence the introduction of the tag line.
The use of a cover over the patient and litter at times increased the spinning potential of the unit, however all litters did not perform the same way.
It requires testing and training with each brand and type to detect their idiosyncrasies, and hover heights over a full range of the winch cable length.
The last documented occurrence of a violent litter rotation in the U.S. that I'm aware of described the patients condition on arrival as "the total emptying of the patients
cranial cavity contents was a consequence of the event".
The tag line must be robust as well and maintained and audited.
The patient was lucky this time.
Steve
Steve, this is some great info, but I'd like to question a couple of things you've mentioned, to see if I'm misinterpreting, or if our opinions differ,
To clarify, here in North America, we see a lot of guys attaching the tagline to the midsection of the patient on purpose, likely due to them not totally understanding how, or why a tagline is effective, we also see guys using a "bridle" type system which unless observed closely appears to be anchored in the middle of the litter but actually splits into a "Y" and isn't too bad. Point being, if thats how they train, then the hoist op likely sees the tagline attached in the middle and thinks nothing of it, because thats "correct" to them. - Training required.
The spin seen in this video and plenty more is 100% caused by rotor downwash, as relative airspeed at the litter changes, the spin worsens/reduces. The downwash from the aircraft has a sweet spot below, which changes based on a number of factors, however hoisting from a lower height will not make any difference at all, as at some stage the litter will still have to pass through this downwash, unless you're so low that the litter never has the chance to pass through this "sweet spot" at all.
On the contrary, a higher hoist may actually be a good option, as you can retrieve the litter until it's clear of canopy/obstructions yet has not been raised enough to encounter this downwash, you can then release the tagline initiate forward flight, which stabilizes the load, and can then be brought through this "sweet spot" while moving forward, mitigating its effects. Find me a video of a litter spinning violently after a sustained period of forward flight....it doesn't exist.
Personally, I'd NEVER use a tree/immovable to stop a spin in the civilian world, there are better/safer options. That's madness, in my opinion. You've got a duty of care to that patient, you open yourself up to all sorts of problems, not to mention the risk of a cable entanglement with a totally useless person on the end who cannot help you.
Vertical ascent will only do one thing, make the downwash worse, as you're forcing more air through the rotor system, any spin you've got, will increase.
Vertical descent may temporarily decrease downwash/spin, but theres ground down there, and it'll very quickly return once you pull the pitch back in.
Using a boot from the cabin door will do NOTHING to alleviate a spin, a spin is happening BELOW the hook, the hook is on a swivel, the cable is not spinning, offsetting the cable from the aircraft by inches in any direction will have zero effect.
I'd like to see the document that refers to the incident in the US that you mentioned...
Ultimately when all else fails, taglines, weak links, ground crew, whatever... AIRSPEED is king, it works, no matter what, and will always fix the problem, yet nobody seems to mention it. Gaining this airspeed needs to be immediate, without hesitation, and obtained as quickly as is safe.
Here's some reading for everyone that explains some of these concepts really well..
https://www.airmedandrescue.com/feature ... -avoidance
Looking forward to discussing this more, as professionals trying to learn....
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ozloadie
- Gold Wings
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- Joined: Oct 2010
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
robaussie,
I suggest you do some professional re-reading of what I wrote to get a thorough understanding of the terms and circumstances that I described before you make your assertions, many of which are not well supported.
And I'm sure you are capable of doing your own research to find information on the incident I described.
The crew got a lot of things right, but they did not use all of the resources that were available to them in time.
The situation got away from them.
"Any rotation at all should be dealt with immediately," and the resources were still there all the while.
I suggest you do some professional re-reading of what I wrote to get a thorough understanding of the terms and circumstances that I described before you make your assertions, many of which are not well supported.
And I'm sure you are capable of doing your own research to find information on the incident I described.
The crew got a lot of things right, but they did not use all of the resources that were available to them in time.
The situation got away from them.
"Any rotation at all should be dealt with immediately," and the resources were still there all the while.
Keep it flying, don't quit!
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robaussie99
- Gold Wings
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Oct 2010
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
ozloadie wrote:robaussie,
I suggest you do some professional re-reading of what I wrote to get a thorough understanding of the terms and circumstances that I described before you make your assertions, many of which are not well supported.
And I'm sure you are capable of doing your own research to find information on the incident I described.
The crew got a lot of things right, but they did not use all of the resources that were available to them in time.
The situation got away from them.
"Any rotation at all should be dealt with immediately," and the resources were still there all the while.
Thanks for the reply, but was really hoping to get some clearer rebuttals to my points, I’ve obviously read, and re-read your post and a lot of your points don’t make sense to me, if you’re indeed correct and I’m mistaken, this would be a great opportunity for me to learn and improve, however this appears to be a situation I experience far too often where experienced guys appear reluctant to share what they know.
By all means clarify your post, because at the moment, it’s confusing. Others probably agree.
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ozloadie
- Gold Wings
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Oct 2010
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
robaussie,
Further to my last, the link that you exhort is related to rescues and emergencies over snow and water, which is irrelevant to the advanced problems of the spinning litter which we are concerned with here as far as remedies and resources to allow those remedies to be enacted (an alpen pine tree or a high bed of kelp or a whale spout might be handy).
It also did not list the gamut of resources that I had (check the source)
I'm starting to wonder just what sort of experience you do have.
Many of your comments seem to have been extracted from the media conference interview statements - you should have given them recognition for borrowing their material.
I can tell you now that the relationships that you develop with tree techniques in both FW and RW operations in all capacities could be the difference in filling in your log book at the end of the day or not, and your pax completing the satisfaction survey card back at the office. Foliage and shrubs do move, see "Wind!"
My comments are not confusing, they are structured and supported by established training techniques and operational experience passed on to me from much higher experienced operators and text books still in vogue today, straight out of the pams and the logbook.
Oh, by the way, you don't release the tag line until the litter is inside the aircraft - and if so, what application does forward flight have to solve the situation in your comment if it is inside and no longer spinning?
Any trained Crewman/Loadmaster/Pilot will tell you that because it is a hazard until it is released.
I think we are dealing with CAT here or a firelighter.
Further to my last, the link that you exhort is related to rescues and emergencies over snow and water, which is irrelevant to the advanced problems of the spinning litter which we are concerned with here as far as remedies and resources to allow those remedies to be enacted (an alpen pine tree or a high bed of kelp or a whale spout might be handy).
It also did not list the gamut of resources that I had (check the source)
I'm starting to wonder just what sort of experience you do have.
Many of your comments seem to have been extracted from the media conference interview statements - you should have given them recognition for borrowing their material.
I can tell you now that the relationships that you develop with tree techniques in both FW and RW operations in all capacities could be the difference in filling in your log book at the end of the day or not, and your pax completing the satisfaction survey card back at the office. Foliage and shrubs do move, see "Wind!"
My comments are not confusing, they are structured and supported by established training techniques and operational experience passed on to me from much higher experienced operators and text books still in vogue today, straight out of the pams and the logbook.
Oh, by the way, you don't release the tag line until the litter is inside the aircraft - and if so, what application does forward flight have to solve the situation in your comment if it is inside and no longer spinning?
Any trained Crewman/Loadmaster/Pilot will tell you that because it is a hazard until it is released.
I think we are dealing with CAT here or a firelighter.
Keep it flying, don't quit!
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robaussie99
- Gold Wings
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Oct 2010
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
ozloadie wrote:robaussie,
Further to my last, the link that you exhort is related to rescues and emergencies over snow and water, which is irrelevant to the advanced problems of the spinning litter which we are concerned with here as far as remedies and resources to allow those remedies to be enacted (an alpen pine tree or a high bed of kelp or a whale spout might be handy).
It also did not list the gamut of resources that I had (check the source)
I'm starting to wonder just what sort of experience you do have.
Many of your comments seem to have been extracted from the media conference interview statements - you should have given them recognition for borrowing their material.
I can tell you now that the relationships that you develop with tree techniques in both FW and RW operations in all capacities could be the difference in filling in your log book at the end of the day or not, and your pax completing the satisfaction survey card back at the office. Foliage and shrubs do move, see "Wind!"
My comments are not confusing, they are structured and supported by established training techniques and operational experience passed on to me from much higher experienced operators and text books still in vogue today, straight out of the pams and the logbook.
Oh, by the way, you don't release the tag line until the litter is inside the aircraft - and if so, what application does forward flight have to solve the situation in your comment if it is inside and no longer spinning?
Any trained Crewman/Loadmaster/Pilot will tell you that because it is a hazard until it is released.
I think we are dealing with CAT here or a firelighter.
Steve,
I won't waste too much time here as I fear my efforts will be in vain,
However, the article I linked to, is non-specific, the information is relevant no matter where you choose to operate. The content is whats important and its pretty accurate.
I'm on Linkedin, my full name is Rob Munday - Feel free to look me up and take a look at my experience, I'm sure it pales in comparison to your vast wealth of knowledge, but like I said, I do try to learn every day.
Working with volunteers, and civillian operators, we may operate a little differently and our risk assessments are undoubtedly a little more safety focussed than yours possibly, we also aren't being shot at, like many of my fellow civilian hoist operators. So the way we do things im sure is different.
I watched the media conference, it's garbage and very poorly handled. I disagree with almost the entire contents of said press conference and I had thought my initial post made that fairly clear.
As soon as the load is clear of obstructions, even if it's 50ft below the aircraft it's totally acceptable for your litter attendant to release the tag line and commence a departure, I know thats not how they did it in Vietnam, but its a real thing now, believe it or not. This forward flight stops the spin, so you CAN get the spinning litter inside instead of having to rely on something like a tree thats only purpose is to snag your hoist cable.
Times changes, techniques change, people learn, improve and adapt, if they're clever.
I'm a trained crewman, and I'm telling you otherwise, weather or not you choose to listen is totally up to you.
Here's something that'll probably blow your mind, same technique applies for litter hoisting too, enjoy
https://vimeo.com/245304749
Good luck with whatever you're up to these days.
Rob,
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ozloadie
- Gold Wings
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Oct 2010
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
robaussie,
Again the link you have indicated is irrelevant as there is no litter hoisting in it (and there is nothing mind blowing about it).
The operator in the footage is picking up the hoistee with the hoist from the ground, that is not the way it should be done - the aircraft takes the weight of the hoist load off the ground and the hoist then raises the load to the aircraft door - that is standard procedure.
The operator in the footage also fails each time to conduct a control check 15-20ft below the skids/airframe to detect any runaways with the hoist - that is standard procedure.
There is also no patter exchange in the footage between the hoist operator and pilots to ensure a clear picture of the situation is being generated during the hoist operation - patter is standard procedure.
When the hoistee arrives in the door, it is standard procedure to turn them facing out so the hoist operator can assist the hoistee into the cabin with their knees bending naturally into the aircraft with the hoist operator holding onto them, not the hook base - its the hoistee that can fall out, not the hook!
Your comment about a litter attendant is irrelevant as there was no such person in the original incident.
Your comments and the performance of those in the footage are a markedly less standard than what would be acceptable in operations conducted here and I cannot fathom why you would indicate the circumstance of being shot at???
It is obvious that you do do things different!
You need to check your spelling (that is a sign of not checking!)
You also need to check your history - in Vietnam most hoists were conducted in the field using slings and jungle penetrators due to the canopy density or a speed requirement due to the tactical environment.
If a litter was to be retrieved, an LZ was cleared, even during the fighting, by the soldiers on the ground with cutting tools and instantaneous det cord to blast the trees, and the helicopter would land, and take the litters and other wounded as well, not in litters.
Tag lines were not around then.
Airspeed is not a guaranteed method of reducing or stopping a spinning litter: it may, but your insisting it will is a dangerous assumption and indicative that you have not experienced the full range of litter behaviour as demonstrated in flight testing.
The idea of bringing a spinning litter into an aircraft is sheer lunacy and suicidal for the airframe. the crew and the patient.
No aircraft captain would allow a serious assymetric to be anywhere near the airframe or disc (it can flick up under the disc, rotor blade boxes have in the past).
My final point is this, which you still seem to have failed to appreciate - you engage the soft crown of a tree or shrub to gradually dissipate the energy of the misbehaving
litter until it settles - it is unlikely that you would be able to hit the tree trunk as the foliage forms a crown around the top of it - the hoist cable would not be able to hit the tree trunk for the same reason ( unless you are such an incompetent hoist operator that you could not find your target spot accurately, particularly after the pilot had positioned the aircraft directly over the top of it.
All sound tried and proven points, operated to the standard of NVG's at night in inclement turbulent weather many times safely over many years.
The End!
Again the link you have indicated is irrelevant as there is no litter hoisting in it (and there is nothing mind blowing about it).
The operator in the footage is picking up the hoistee with the hoist from the ground, that is not the way it should be done - the aircraft takes the weight of the hoist load off the ground and the hoist then raises the load to the aircraft door - that is standard procedure.
The operator in the footage also fails each time to conduct a control check 15-20ft below the skids/airframe to detect any runaways with the hoist - that is standard procedure.
There is also no patter exchange in the footage between the hoist operator and pilots to ensure a clear picture of the situation is being generated during the hoist operation - patter is standard procedure.
When the hoistee arrives in the door, it is standard procedure to turn them facing out so the hoist operator can assist the hoistee into the cabin with their knees bending naturally into the aircraft with the hoist operator holding onto them, not the hook base - its the hoistee that can fall out, not the hook!
Your comment about a litter attendant is irrelevant as there was no such person in the original incident.
Your comments and the performance of those in the footage are a markedly less standard than what would be acceptable in operations conducted here and I cannot fathom why you would indicate the circumstance of being shot at???
It is obvious that you do do things different!
You need to check your spelling (that is a sign of not checking!)
You also need to check your history - in Vietnam most hoists were conducted in the field using slings and jungle penetrators due to the canopy density or a speed requirement due to the tactical environment.
If a litter was to be retrieved, an LZ was cleared, even during the fighting, by the soldiers on the ground with cutting tools and instantaneous det cord to blast the trees, and the helicopter would land, and take the litters and other wounded as well, not in litters.
Tag lines were not around then.
Airspeed is not a guaranteed method of reducing or stopping a spinning litter: it may, but your insisting it will is a dangerous assumption and indicative that you have not experienced the full range of litter behaviour as demonstrated in flight testing.
The idea of bringing a spinning litter into an aircraft is sheer lunacy and suicidal for the airframe. the crew and the patient.
No aircraft captain would allow a serious assymetric to be anywhere near the airframe or disc (it can flick up under the disc, rotor blade boxes have in the past).
My final point is this, which you still seem to have failed to appreciate - you engage the soft crown of a tree or shrub to gradually dissipate the energy of the misbehaving
litter until it settles - it is unlikely that you would be able to hit the tree trunk as the foliage forms a crown around the top of it - the hoist cable would not be able to hit the tree trunk for the same reason ( unless you are such an incompetent hoist operator that you could not find your target spot accurately, particularly after the pilot had positioned the aircraft directly over the top of it.
All sound tried and proven points, operated to the standard of NVG's at night in inclement turbulent weather many times safely over many years.
The End!
Keep it flying, don't quit!
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hand in pants
- 4th Dan
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- Joined: Sep 2006
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
Is this another re-brand of flewhuey??????
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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robaussie99
- Gold Wings
- Posts: 138
- Joined: Oct 2010
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
OK, seriously, who is deleting my posts?
Is ozloadie a mod? **edit, answered my own question, he indeed is.....** perhaps that should change if he's manipulating a conversation to stroke his own ego, I cant see anyone else being that interested in deleting posts without an explanation.....**
I'll paste it again, until I get an explanation from whoever is doing it....
Steve,
Based on the fact that my response has been deleted by mods, no idea why (Mods, I'd appreciate a PM explaining why) it appears that they either want this conversation to continue, or are discouraging an actual (to this point) somewhat respectful conversation. Again, I'm trying to learn here, I've received a number of supportive messages in private, I know theres others paying attention to this conversation but don't want to engage, for their benefit, I'll respond. I apologize for my horrific spelling in advance, I know it must make it hard for you to understand, but unlike you, I'm not perfect. We also use "z's" in place of "s's" a lot over here too, just another thing we do differently, but not wrong..... just FYI.....
The link I posted demonstrates what's known as "dynamic hoisting" - this method of approach and departure while deploying/retracting hoist cable is a proven way to keep a load more stabilized and reduces swing, spin, and oscillations which are 3 independent concerns that have different remedial actions.... Weather you have a litter, a person, or an empty hook on the end of the cable, the method is still effective in controlling that cable and the subsequent load, I understand that the video I linked to does not have a litter physically shown but if you use your imagination a little bit, you could possibly envision how much more stable the load would be, while in forward flight, this is also proven when doing vessel hoisting for the same reason as why we prefer to have the vessel underway, because, as we know, everything becomes more stable with speed, the aircraft, the vessel and the load.
I also understand that you've been trained by the Australian army, who undoubtedly have been doing this for a while, they have a set of procedures, they work for the Australian army personnel, performing the duties of the Australian army. I'd appreciate it if you could give some consideration to the fact that there are other people in this world outside of the Australian army.....there's other branches of the armed forces, theres even armed forces in other countries, not to mention terrain, equipment and procedures in the civilian world in almost every country on earth that differ from that of the Australian Army. I have never been in the Armed Forces but a lot of the people that trained me have been. Understand that just because the Australian Army does things a certain way, that other people are allowed to do it differently, and heaven forbid, it might even work for them to do so, where they are, with their specific aircraft, terrain and equipment.
With that being said I'll address some of your other points.....
The load can be physically picked up by EITHER the aircraft or the hoist. In my experience the pilot establishes the aircraft in a stable hover, he picks his reference points, so does the hoist operator in the back, this assists both crew members in quickly recognizing and correcting unwanted movements in the aircraft, if the aircraft is required to move (for example to climb to pick up the load) then the pilot and hoist operator are required to recalibrate their reference points in order to maintain this new position, higher than previously. In my experience the hoist operator has the ability, using his thumb, to simply retract cable to pick up the load, and avoid everything that I've mentioned above. A lot of operators do it this way. As soon as the load is picked up, the Hoist Operator asks for a "power check" form the Pilot, If the load is too heavy, the aircraft settles, the pilot advises that the power is not sufficient, and the load is put back down. You'll undoubtedly think this is wrong, and thats fine.
It is standard procedure for the Australian army to conduct a control check at 15-20ft below the aircraft, I understand this, the technology in modern hoists is pretty incredible, the new Goodrich models are very very reliable, most operators using this equipment will not have ever experienced a runaway, in the past or with hydraulic hoists, or older units as possibly seen on older model Armed Forces aircraft, the reliability may not have been there, I don't know, but a lot of operators have elected to forego the control check 15-20ft below the door, modern hoists have a number of built in "limit" switches in their electronics that are indenpenant of the actual reel in/out function, this will (if working correctly) reduce the speed automatically at around 10ft, just below the skid, again with approximately 3ft remaining to an even slower speed, then again to a full stop at the upper limit, if a runaway were to occur, it would be the world's greatest coincidence if all 3 independent limit switches were to also simultaneously fail. The hoist operator is given a number of opportunities to recognize a runaway without the need for a control check. Hypothetically speaking, what if you were to stop at 15ft, do your control check, then receive the runaway after that point...? You'll undoubtedly say that a control check is essential, and thats fine.
"Patter" is standard procedure across almost every hoist operation I've ever seen, that we can agree on.....the actual content of the patter will differ almost everywhere you go, the video I linked is not mine, I suggest you contact them directly if you have issues with the way they're doing business, Bob Cockell is his name, he owns Air Rescue Systems in the US..... people even provide patter it in different languages believe it or not... The guys over in Switzerland, at Air Zermatt (yes, from "The Horn" TV series on Redbull.tv) actually do almost all of their hoisting with the pilot looking down through a vertical reference bubble window in their Bell 429, so the patter is almost nonexistent as the pilot sees everything and actually prefers to keep patter to the bare minimum, they're at altitude up there and straight from their own account "speaking more than essential uses unnecessary oxygen" , horses for courses.....the purpose of the video I linked to was not to discuss patter, nor was the original intent of this entire topic, we've got enough to discuss, so let's leave patter for another day shall we.....? You'll undoubtedly say that the Australian Army patter is the only acceptable patter, and thats fine.
I'm not sure how we got around to discussing how to bring a hoistee into the door, we're discussing spin mitigation techniques when hoisting litters... however a single guy on the hook might come inside one way, a rescuer attending a litter may come in a different way, a rescuer riding with a "screamer suit" type jacket rescue device may come in "cradling" the patient, a rescuer riding with a survivor in a "strop" will likely move inside using the technique you described which, you'll no doubt tell me is the only way to do it, in every circumstance, and thats fine, to be clear, I've NEVER said I would try and bring a spinning litter inside the cabin or up past the skid, NEVER, and to be crystal clear, this is madness, nobody should do this.....moving on....
My comments about the litter attendant may not be relevant in this case, but this is a helicopter community, who, for the most part are trying to avoid accidents and incidents, having an attendant ride with your litter is helpful in a lot of cases, the only real exception is when you're so power limited that you cannot physically pick up that weight, or the weight exceeds the load rating on the hoist. They can assist with hoist cable entanglement issues, they can keep the litter away from solid objects like a cliff face or tree during the extraction, they can control spin using new technologies that are available now like an anti-rotation device (see link below) and thee can also release the tagline from the litter to facilitate forward flight in the event of a spin, or to free the tagline in the event that it becomes entangled below. This topic is discussing litter spin mitigation, and having an attendant is one method of doing that, people may not be aware why, this is a learning opportunity for those people. You'll no doubt suggest that it's still irrelevent and go off on another tangent, and thats fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bqQKsyrYfE&t=55s&frags=pl%2Cwn
I've been trained by Australian Army loadmasters, and have been employed in Australia as an Aircrewman. My performance was up to their standards, and those of my employer....we'll leave it at that.
With regard to being "shot at" - theres a very good case for modifying your SOP's in the armed forces vs the civilian world as requirements dictate, the point I was making is that the armed forces have very different procedures, techniques, equipment and mindset compared to those in the civilian world, fast roping would be a great example of a technique that has no place in the civilian world, as there isn't the requirement for it. We have safer options, My point was a generalized one, the techniques you've been taught by the Australian Army were originally developed primarily for times of conflict, in war-zones or places that most civilians just wouldn't go. Hence, they might be different from where 99% of actual operational hoist rescues in the world actually occur these days (on the civilian side of the fence). You'll undoubtedly tell me that the Australian Army way is the only way, and that's fine.
My comment about Vietnam is mostly directed at the "Dinosaur" mentality of how to perform operations, as we see on a regular basis in all facets of this industry. I don't care how you did it in Vietnam itself as we're not in Vietnam and a civilian operator would never operate that way anymore. As we both know, just because thats how something was done in 1945 when Igor Sikorsky pulled a guy off a barge in Connecticut in his R-5 doesn't make it right in 2019, but thanks for the history lesson anyhow.
Getting back to the actual point of this topic, in this day and age, as evidenced by hundreds of operators around the world, dynamic hoisting works, maintaining forward airspeed during approach and departure for as much time as possible particularly in that critical zone beneath the aircraft where downwash is at its most powerful is a proven and effective way to severely mitigate or even totally eliminate the possibility of a spinning litter, combined with the correct use of a tagline and a correctly trained and competent litter attendant you're really going to set yourself up for success, take away any one, or multiple components that I just mentioned and you set yourself up for failure more and more. They're "tools in the toolbox", so to speak and aren't right for every situation, but they're good to know. Forward airspeed is VERY effective in reducing spin, if your tagline fails, or your ground crew are incompetent and you get into a situation like the one these guys in Phoenix found themselves in last week, you're pretty short on options, if you honestly believe that it is a viable option to take an out of control spinning litter and deliberately placing it into contact with an object that is firmly rooted to the ground without any realistic way of freeing that litter if it does become entangled then have at it. I won't stop you, but just know that the vast majority of operators out there will tell you you're totally insane. You'll undoubtedly tell us that you were trained by the Australian Army and thats how it's done, and thats fine. We can agree to disagree on that point.
I'm really appreciative of your feedback and contribution to this conversation so far, I think I've described my points as best I can, and I'm sure you've done the same. I don't think theres much more to contribute from my end, and I appreciate the opportunity to share my experiences and my (apparently very limited and incorrect) knowledge. I'm still employed full time as a hoist operator today, and a decent chunk of that time is spent communicating with other agencies around the world, researching techniques and equipment online and reading training manuals to keep up with the progression of the industry. I try to contribute as much as I can to evolving and improving the industry for all involved. A big part of this evolution is knowledge sharing.....so even if you disagree and contest everything I write, If someone else here takes something from my comments, does their own research and thinks it can improve their operation as well, then my words were not in vain.
Good luck to you Steve, in whatever you're up to these days.
(Mods, this took a really long time to write, so if you take offence, please let me know beforehand so I can modify what I've written to conform to the script, rather than having to re-write everything)
Cheers,
Rob.
Is ozloadie a mod? **edit, answered my own question, he indeed is.....** perhaps that should change if he's manipulating a conversation to stroke his own ego, I cant see anyone else being that interested in deleting posts without an explanation.....**
I'll paste it again, until I get an explanation from whoever is doing it....
Steve,
Based on the fact that my response has been deleted by mods, no idea why (Mods, I'd appreciate a PM explaining why) it appears that they either want this conversation to continue, or are discouraging an actual (to this point) somewhat respectful conversation. Again, I'm trying to learn here, I've received a number of supportive messages in private, I know theres others paying attention to this conversation but don't want to engage, for their benefit, I'll respond. I apologize for my horrific spelling in advance, I know it must make it hard for you to understand, but unlike you, I'm not perfect. We also use "z's" in place of "s's" a lot over here too, just another thing we do differently, but not wrong..... just FYI.....
The link I posted demonstrates what's known as "dynamic hoisting" - this method of approach and departure while deploying/retracting hoist cable is a proven way to keep a load more stabilized and reduces swing, spin, and oscillations which are 3 independent concerns that have different remedial actions.... Weather you have a litter, a person, or an empty hook on the end of the cable, the method is still effective in controlling that cable and the subsequent load, I understand that the video I linked to does not have a litter physically shown but if you use your imagination a little bit, you could possibly envision how much more stable the load would be, while in forward flight, this is also proven when doing vessel hoisting for the same reason as why we prefer to have the vessel underway, because, as we know, everything becomes more stable with speed, the aircraft, the vessel and the load.
I also understand that you've been trained by the Australian army, who undoubtedly have been doing this for a while, they have a set of procedures, they work for the Australian army personnel, performing the duties of the Australian army. I'd appreciate it if you could give some consideration to the fact that there are other people in this world outside of the Australian army.....there's other branches of the armed forces, theres even armed forces in other countries, not to mention terrain, equipment and procedures in the civilian world in almost every country on earth that differ from that of the Australian Army. I have never been in the Armed Forces but a lot of the people that trained me have been. Understand that just because the Australian Army does things a certain way, that other people are allowed to do it differently, and heaven forbid, it might even work for them to do so, where they are, with their specific aircraft, terrain and equipment.
With that being said I'll address some of your other points.....
The load can be physically picked up by EITHER the aircraft or the hoist. In my experience the pilot establishes the aircraft in a stable hover, he picks his reference points, so does the hoist operator in the back, this assists both crew members in quickly recognizing and correcting unwanted movements in the aircraft, if the aircraft is required to move (for example to climb to pick up the load) then the pilot and hoist operator are required to recalibrate their reference points in order to maintain this new position, higher than previously. In my experience the hoist operator has the ability, using his thumb, to simply retract cable to pick up the load, and avoid everything that I've mentioned above. A lot of operators do it this way. As soon as the load is picked up, the Hoist Operator asks for a "power check" form the Pilot, If the load is too heavy, the aircraft settles, the pilot advises that the power is not sufficient, and the load is put back down. You'll undoubtedly think this is wrong, and thats fine.
It is standard procedure for the Australian army to conduct a control check at 15-20ft below the aircraft, I understand this, the technology in modern hoists is pretty incredible, the new Goodrich models are very very reliable, most operators using this equipment will not have ever experienced a runaway, in the past or with hydraulic hoists, or older units as possibly seen on older model Armed Forces aircraft, the reliability may not have been there, I don't know, but a lot of operators have elected to forego the control check 15-20ft below the door, modern hoists have a number of built in "limit" switches in their electronics that are indenpenant of the actual reel in/out function, this will (if working correctly) reduce the speed automatically at around 10ft, just below the skid, again with approximately 3ft remaining to an even slower speed, then again to a full stop at the upper limit, if a runaway were to occur, it would be the world's greatest coincidence if all 3 independent limit switches were to also simultaneously fail. The hoist operator is given a number of opportunities to recognize a runaway without the need for a control check. Hypothetically speaking, what if you were to stop at 15ft, do your control check, then receive the runaway after that point...? You'll undoubtedly say that a control check is essential, and thats fine.
"Patter" is standard procedure across almost every hoist operation I've ever seen, that we can agree on.....the actual content of the patter will differ almost everywhere you go, the video I linked is not mine, I suggest you contact them directly if you have issues with the way they're doing business, Bob Cockell is his name, he owns Air Rescue Systems in the US..... people even provide patter it in different languages believe it or not... The guys over in Switzerland, at Air Zermatt (yes, from "The Horn" TV series on Redbull.tv) actually do almost all of their hoisting with the pilot looking down through a vertical reference bubble window in their Bell 429, so the patter is almost nonexistent as the pilot sees everything and actually prefers to keep patter to the bare minimum, they're at altitude up there and straight from their own account "speaking more than essential uses unnecessary oxygen" , horses for courses.....the purpose of the video I linked to was not to discuss patter, nor was the original intent of this entire topic, we've got enough to discuss, so let's leave patter for another day shall we.....? You'll undoubtedly say that the Australian Army patter is the only acceptable patter, and thats fine.
I'm not sure how we got around to discussing how to bring a hoistee into the door, we're discussing spin mitigation techniques when hoisting litters... however a single guy on the hook might come inside one way, a rescuer attending a litter may come in a different way, a rescuer riding with a "screamer suit" type jacket rescue device may come in "cradling" the patient, a rescuer riding with a survivor in a "strop" will likely move inside using the technique you described which, you'll no doubt tell me is the only way to do it, in every circumstance, and thats fine, to be clear, I've NEVER said I would try and bring a spinning litter inside the cabin or up past the skid, NEVER, and to be crystal clear, this is madness, nobody should do this.....moving on....
My comments about the litter attendant may not be relevant in this case, but this is a helicopter community, who, for the most part are trying to avoid accidents and incidents, having an attendant ride with your litter is helpful in a lot of cases, the only real exception is when you're so power limited that you cannot physically pick up that weight, or the weight exceeds the load rating on the hoist. They can assist with hoist cable entanglement issues, they can keep the litter away from solid objects like a cliff face or tree during the extraction, they can control spin using new technologies that are available now like an anti-rotation device (see link below) and thee can also release the tagline from the litter to facilitate forward flight in the event of a spin, or to free the tagline in the event that it becomes entangled below. This topic is discussing litter spin mitigation, and having an attendant is one method of doing that, people may not be aware why, this is a learning opportunity for those people. You'll no doubt suggest that it's still irrelevent and go off on another tangent, and thats fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bqQKsyrYfE&t=55s&frags=pl%2Cwn
I've been trained by Australian Army loadmasters, and have been employed in Australia as an Aircrewman. My performance was up to their standards, and those of my employer....we'll leave it at that.
With regard to being "shot at" - theres a very good case for modifying your SOP's in the armed forces vs the civilian world as requirements dictate, the point I was making is that the armed forces have very different procedures, techniques, equipment and mindset compared to those in the civilian world, fast roping would be a great example of a technique that has no place in the civilian world, as there isn't the requirement for it. We have safer options, My point was a generalized one, the techniques you've been taught by the Australian Army were originally developed primarily for times of conflict, in war-zones or places that most civilians just wouldn't go. Hence, they might be different from where 99% of actual operational hoist rescues in the world actually occur these days (on the civilian side of the fence). You'll undoubtedly tell me that the Australian Army way is the only way, and that's fine.
My comment about Vietnam is mostly directed at the "Dinosaur" mentality of how to perform operations, as we see on a regular basis in all facets of this industry. I don't care how you did it in Vietnam itself as we're not in Vietnam and a civilian operator would never operate that way anymore. As we both know, just because thats how something was done in 1945 when Igor Sikorsky pulled a guy off a barge in Connecticut in his R-5 doesn't make it right in 2019, but thanks for the history lesson anyhow.
Getting back to the actual point of this topic, in this day and age, as evidenced by hundreds of operators around the world, dynamic hoisting works, maintaining forward airspeed during approach and departure for as much time as possible particularly in that critical zone beneath the aircraft where downwash is at its most powerful is a proven and effective way to severely mitigate or even totally eliminate the possibility of a spinning litter, combined with the correct use of a tagline and a correctly trained and competent litter attendant you're really going to set yourself up for success, take away any one, or multiple components that I just mentioned and you set yourself up for failure more and more. They're "tools in the toolbox", so to speak and aren't right for every situation, but they're good to know. Forward airspeed is VERY effective in reducing spin, if your tagline fails, or your ground crew are incompetent and you get into a situation like the one these guys in Phoenix found themselves in last week, you're pretty short on options, if you honestly believe that it is a viable option to take an out of control spinning litter and deliberately placing it into contact with an object that is firmly rooted to the ground without any realistic way of freeing that litter if it does become entangled then have at it. I won't stop you, but just know that the vast majority of operators out there will tell you you're totally insane. You'll undoubtedly tell us that you were trained by the Australian Army and thats how it's done, and thats fine. We can agree to disagree on that point.
I'm really appreciative of your feedback and contribution to this conversation so far, I think I've described my points as best I can, and I'm sure you've done the same. I don't think theres much more to contribute from my end, and I appreciate the opportunity to share my experiences and my (apparently very limited and incorrect) knowledge. I'm still employed full time as a hoist operator today, and a decent chunk of that time is spent communicating with other agencies around the world, researching techniques and equipment online and reading training manuals to keep up with the progression of the industry. I try to contribute as much as I can to evolving and improving the industry for all involved. A big part of this evolution is knowledge sharing.....so even if you disagree and contest everything I write, If someone else here takes something from my comments, does their own research and thinks it can improve their operation as well, then my words were not in vain.
Good luck to you Steve, in whatever you're up to these days.
(Mods, this took a really long time to write, so if you take offence, please let me know beforehand so I can modify what I've written to conform to the script, rather than having to re-write everything)
Cheers,
Rob.
-
FerrariFlyer
- 4th Dan
- Posts: 1543
- Joined: Aug 2006
Re: Winch Rescue gone wrong
Hi Rob,
Just had a quick read of the thread and what's been edited.
For your information, moderators have their usernames coloured in lime green and can delete and edit posts as required only if they contain profane or abusive language or content that is quite inappropriate. I can't recall seeing anything you posted fitting these descriptions to date so not sure why they were deleted.
FF
Just had a quick read of the thread and what's been edited.
For your information, moderators have their usernames coloured in lime green and can delete and edit posts as required only if they contain profane or abusive language or content that is quite inappropriate. I can't recall seeing anything you posted fitting these descriptions to date so not sure why they were deleted.
FF
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