457 visa changes

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
Heliduck
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457 visa changes

Postby Heliduck » Tue Apr 18 2017, 20:36

According to the Dept. of immigration website, helicopter pilots will be removed from the list of eligible skilled occupations from 19th April 2017. This will only apply to new applications so no doubt there's a few medium operators wondering what they'll do for the fire season in a few years time when the visa's of current Canadian pilots expires. If we're not careful we'll end up creating training opportunities for local pilots! :o
Now to build a wall in the Tasman sea, & get NZ to pay for it. pop;
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby Cleared Hot » Tue Apr 18 2017, 20:46

Great news,

If I can't go there no point letting them come here.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby integrity » Tue Apr 18 2017, 21:24

"If we're not careful we'll end up creating training opportunities for local pilots!
Now to build a wall in the Tasman sea, & get NZ to pay for it."

So beautifully said ! Absolutely love it !!!
Where there is no vision - the people shall perish.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby helip » Tue Apr 18 2017, 22:45

,,
SIR_SMP
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby SIR_SMP » Tue Apr 18 2017, 23:37

No idea why pilots where ever on there in the first place, shake every second tree and two pilots fall out. Ok they might not have all the tickets (yet) but.....

In my real job ( you know the one that pays the power bill ie. not aviation) there was a seemingly shortage of skilled workers in a particular stream (non aviation) which was due in part to lack of security in the workforce employment status (no one willing to do an apprenticeship) so the industry said lets just bring em in on 457's, it will be cheap and they will be productive right away

The so called "skilled" workers that were brought in cost about $52k in total per person before you payed their salary and just about all of them required training anyway, plus you had a minimum commitment of employment anyway

So The case was built to get a few industry leaders together, offer local talent the stability through shared employment (if required) and re invest in decent training. Ended up costing lest than a 457 program and we got local people employed in meaningful high skill work

Now its a little different in this scenario but you can see some common flavours come through the mix. You would probably find people would self invest if the opportunity presented itself for decent gig in the future and was offset by company $$ better directed to training local talent than importing OS pilots

Take me, I am as junior as it gets (flying wise) but right now I find it really hard to give up the suit and desk (which I despise) to go fly (which I love) for living because what exists in a few years of hard work, pretty much nothing. The best scenario I currently am contemplating is switching over to be a planker wally and doing what I gotta do to meet the airline minima's as an advanced entry cadet or junior 3rd officer, at least there is a future in that industry. If I knew there were jobs for me in the heli world in the future I would go get the ratings and jump in to crappy jobs building hours, as long as I knew there was light at the end of the tunnel. Right now hanging around the airport, whenever I see a decent job(s) filled by import pilot(s) it s$%ts me to tears

Rant over....
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby choppermech1986 » Wed Apr 19 2017, 01:43

1. We work in a global industry and many countries allow Australian pilots to get work visas that are very similar to the 457 Visa. PNG, Indo, Canada, USA, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, China, Fiji, Vanuatu etc etc. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

2. Believe it or not, the number of Canadian and Australian pilots in each others country is about 50/50 (averaged over a year). Canadians won't like this new rule at all so expect the flow of Australians to be choked down in Canada so that that ratio stays about the same. This won't bode well for pilots who are looking to step into the shoes of the pilots who currently leave for Canada (I'm looking at you SMP).

3. Just like Canada, the reason so many pilots are unemployed in Australia is because they either don't have the skills, the minimums, or the work ethic.

4. SMP, I hate to have to tell you but there's just not enough helicopters or work in Australia for everyone who wants to be a helicopter pilot. There is fulltime work for those pilots who are committed and driven, it's often not incredibly well paid but it does pay the bills and is in line with the skills required and risk involved.

I want to make this clear, I'm all for Australian companies employing Australians first, (for the most part, this happens at the moment*) and this new rule will be great for my career and bank account, but I'm certainly not for entitlement. All it does is makes us less competitive on the global market and that entitlement will come back to bite us (and future generations) in a big way.

Perhaps we need to think a little bigger than ourselves and have a look at what young people in developing countries are doing with their internet access (upskilling, taking courses and then freelancing to first world countries) and what we are doing with ours (candy crush, Facebook and Bladeslapper)

*As SMP stated, nobody in their right mind would go through all the rigamarole to get a 457 worker when they could just hire a local
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby SIR_SMP » Wed Apr 19 2017, 03:51

choppermech1986 wrote:
I want to make this clear, I'm all for Australian companies employing Australians first


I think were singing the same song bud :)

Please don't confuse me as some pimple headed jobless wanna be helo pilot, I guess I am luckier than most in that I own my own aircraft and have been sniffing around long enough to make a few contacts, recently (last 2 months) I was invited to discuss two flying gigs through contacts (there comes the right job ethic part and other skills part) but for me deciding to jump out from the desk is really a decision based on if there is a good enough gig down the line to make the whole hour building process worthwhile (no problem with work ethic getting quals or tickets, just hours)

As I said, seems easier to just go to plank school, get a command multi engine, fly a Cessna around for a couple hundred hours and bingo bongo become a junior 3rd officer (simplified version) which is about the same as a grade 1,2 helo instructor makes

But I am getting side tracked, my point is I don't believe (outside of fully qualified airline guys) there is anything near a pilot skills shortage in this country and therefore I don't support any form of pilot visa program. Some will (respectfully) agree to disagree and I am happy to leave it at that :wink:
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby Gonsky » Wed Apr 19 2017, 04:55

The world is going global and govts are now trying to go the nationalistic route to get the vote back when at the same time they sell the country's assets out the back door. You cut another country off and they will reciprocate which has been already stated above. They were firstly looking to target the fast food industry and that is about 500 people, wow what a difference that will make.

Hundreds of thousands are on non-457 work and student visa’s but no one looks at that side?

Won't make an iota of difference, Aus like the rest of the world is going down the entitlement path.

Everyone should have a job doing what they want whether they are any good at it or not. Every Australian should have their own home as it is their right whether they can afford it or not. And so on and so on and so on.

So as the hype died down over snowy mountain hydro V2 the govt comes up with another brilliant idea to save the country.................just in time.

It used to be if you were good at any profession you will always have employment, problem is automation is coming to every industry and that will make things very different in the coming years.

Regards,
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby Saucepan » Wed Apr 19 2017, 05:40

I don't think the removal of the 457 will make any difference to the industry. There are still too many skilled pilots earning a living from Uber or whatnot right now.

Remember when the beloved Part 61 initially made an appearance and all the firefighter pilots had to have a Fire fighting rating overnight...but of course no-one had one! The solution was through exemptions. If 'Australia' burns again on the usual seasonal basis and companies need experienced Canadian / US pilots (especially with the Skycrane) then I'm sure exemptions will be applied for and complied with then.

Time will tell, just like Australia used to have a shortage of 139 pilots....
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby Cleared Hot » Wed Apr 19 2017, 09:57

Canada is not on par with us now this might bring things to a draw, I believe our work visa s under 45yo, Canada under 35yo. Which sucks cause I'm over 35, so me can't play. I thought there was going to be some mutual agreement between the two countries guess not now. Seems we are going the USA route.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby bigglesbutler » Wed Apr 19 2017, 13:35

The plot thickens, anyone with a 457 visa application in but not approved is likely to have it revoked if their professional has been removed from the skills list :O

Si
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby choppermech1986 » Wed Apr 19 2017, 18:37

Cleared Hot wrote:Canada is not on par with us now this might bring things to a draw, I believe our work visa s under 45yo, Canada under 35yo. Which sucks cause I'm over 35, so me can't play. I thought there was going to be some mutual agreement between the two countries guess not now. Seems we are going the USA route.


Cleared Hot wrote:Great news,

If I can't go there no point letting them come here.



CH, It's obvious that you have no idea about visa requirements. I'm not going to school you on it but you couldn't be further than the truth. If you had skills that were in demand (ag pilot, MEIFR HEMS, fast food service), you could go to Canada and work regardless of age (likely in a place that's not a very desirable part of the country). You would need to be sponsored, the employer would have to prove that no Canadians were willing and able to fill the role and a fee would have to be paid (sounding anything like a 457 visa?).

The reason that Australian pilots want to go to Canada is for the experience and the longline time. They are often welcomed with open arms because they have the minimum hours for many contracts (1500 or so) and they don't mind living in the places that the experienced Canadian pilots don't want to live. Most of these guys are under 30 and go on a two year holiday visa, the same ones that Aussie and Kiwi liftys working on the ski hill at Whistler have (which are very similar to the visas that Canadian tourists get who come here to pick fruit and work on dive boats). They can work for anyone, don't need to be sponsored and once their two year visa is up, either need to be sponsored or apply for permanent residency.

The reason that Canadian pilots want to come to Australia is for the money and work in the winter (off season). They are often welcomed with open arms because they have the minimum hours (on type, on fires and longline) and they are current and can work a fire efficiently and safely. Most of these guys are over 40 and are on a 400 series visa, they need to be sponsored, the employer has to prove that no Australians were willing and able to fill the role and a fee would have to be paid.

To be honest, I could care less about what laws the gummint wants to bring in (as I said, from what I can tell, this will benefit me), I just can't stand ignorance and entitlement.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby kiwiflyer » Wed Apr 19 2017, 22:06

Choppermech is bang on.
If needed you can work pretty much where you want it's just that some country's have more hoops than others to climb through.
Some such as Italy are strictly off limits even close by European country's can't work in Italy and I think Brazil my be similar.
Either way as great as it might be there are not going to be 139 or Blackhawk fire jobs opening up to fresh CPLs just because the visa rules changed.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby Mag seal » Wed Apr 19 2017, 23:17

Choppermech and Kiwi both say similar things. "If your skill is in demand you will get a work visa" or words to that effect.

The problem here is the 457 visa holders skills are not in such demand that an Australian pilot could not be quickly brought up to speed to fulfil the role.
The latest ad for HNZ requires an S92 rating, so probably 50% of the positions will be filled by overseas pilots instead of training locals. I know several well qualified MIFR/NVG Captains with the relevant experience that would jump at this position yet will be overlooked in favour of a foreigner who has time on type. I fully understand the need for time on type but this could and should be done under ICUS on the job to bring the new to type Aussie up to speed and be ready to take over the command.
This is the norm in most other places.

Most other traditional Expat flying gigs are beginning to slow down due to localisation. Indonesia is trying very hard to rid itself of expat pilots as are Nigeria, Angola and The Middle East. The USA is almost impossible to work in for an overseas Helicopter pilot except instructing for a short period....then you're out!. Canada, unless you are on the Working Holiday visa the chances of sponsorship is slim now.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby kiwiflyer » Thu Apr 20 2017, 03:54

I hear your frustrations Mag but it can take years to get pilots experience level and minimum hrs up to a level that is suitable to the helicopter company and also the client.
Then add in factors such as the recent Irish coastguard accident and the experience levels will go up even further.
I disagree with the statement that it is the norm in other country's to train up guys under icus as it doesn't happen. It should be the norm but sadly it's not.
The icus program is a co pilot always has been and prob always will be.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby Cleared Hot » Thu Apr 20 2017, 06:51

choppermech1986 wrote:
Cleared Hot wrote:Canada is not on par with us now this might bring things to a draw, I believe our work visa s under 45yo, Canada under 35yo. Which sucks cause I'm over 35, so me can't play. I thought there was going to be some mutual agreement between the two countries guess not now. Seems we are going the USA route.


Cleared Hot wrote:Great news,

If I can't go there no point letting them come here.



CH, It's obvious that you have no idea about visa requirements. I'm not going to school you on it but you couldn't be further than the truth. If you had skills that were in demand (ag pilot, MEIFR HEMS, fast food service), you could go to Canada and work regardless of age (likely in a place that's not a very desirable part of the country). You would need to be sponsored, the employer would have to prove that no Canadians were willing and able to fill the role and a fee would have to be paid (sounding anything like a 457 visa?).

The reason that Australian pilots want to go to Canada is for the experience and the longline time. They are often welcomed with open arms because they have the minimum hours for many contracts (1500 or so) and they don't mind living in the places that the experienced Canadian pilots don't want to live. Most of these guys are under 30 and go on a two year holiday visa, the same ones that Aussie and Kiwi liftys working on the ski hill at Whistler have (which are very similar to the visas that Canadian tourists get who come here to pick fruit and work on dive boats). They can work for anyone, don't need to be sponsored and once their two year visa is up, either need to be sponsored or apply for permanent residency.

The reason that Canadian pilots want to come to Australia is for the money and work in the winter (off season). They are often welcomed with open arms because they have the minimum hours (on type, on fires and longline) and they are current and can work a fire efficiently and safely. Most of these guys are over 40 and are on a 400 series visa, they need to be sponsored, the employer has to prove that no Australians were willing and able to fill the role and a fee would have to be paid.

To be honest, I could care less about what laws the gummint wants to bring in (as I said, from what I can tell, this will benefit me), I just can't stand ignorance and entitlement.


Thanks for the visa 101 lecture much appreciated. True I don't have a clue but have tried to get sponsored there in the past seems no one Wants to go through the effort, guess I'm not in demand as the average bum kicked single driver.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby plumber » Sun Apr 23 2017, 16:23

It's funny you guys whining about Canadians stealing your work. The last 5 years flying in Northern Alberta and BC all you heard on the radio were Aussies and Kiwi's. You come here work for less money and longer tours then leave. Effectively screwing it up for Canadians. All the Canadians I know that go to Australia are there for big $ and good rotations.
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Re: 457 visa changes

Postby bubble bugs » Tue Apr 25 2017, 02:11

Not entirely true plumber.

From my experience most Aussies I've worked with in Canada are paid according to ability and experience. No doubt some Canadian operators have abused the system and worked foreigners on long tours and may have paid on the light side however I believe the vast majority are fair.
In Australia I have seen one Canadian operator send mediums down to Australia and pay Canadian drivers less than an Australian jet buggy driver. The option was stay home and not work for 5 months or go to Aussie on a wage and some did.
On the whole the Canadian and American operators that invest in the trip south are on par or above the Aussie equivalent. If you are a Canadian working for an Australian company I think on the whole you are paid fairly and what the operator thinks your worth.
I guess if you don't think your valued move on whether it be in Canada, Australia, NZ, Mexico, PNG or wherever.

Ive found most guys that complain are those not willing to get out of their comfort zone, be the foreigner and try working in other places themselves.
To those that invest in their career by doing so, deserve to reap the benefits in my opinion.

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