NTSB Medevac crash report

General stuff that gets thrown about when Helicopter Pilots shoot the Breeze.
Savage_duck
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NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Savage_duck » Sun Nov 24 2019, 05:37

When the commercial imperative becomes the priority...
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/63000-63499 ... 629992.pdf
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Master Cylinder » Sun Nov 24 2019, 10:31

This is some crazy reading.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Yankee » Sun Nov 24 2019, 11:50

This is why I like the idea of non profit EMS organizations.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby garly1 » Sun Nov 24 2019, 18:47

Amazing that more crews didn't lose their lives really. Pretty sobering reading.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby havick » Sun Nov 24 2019, 19:55

It’s only going to get worse. The experience level in the EMS sector in the USA is tanking (even more so that it already was) now the airlines are hiring on helicopter pilots that have instrument experience, thus draining the IFR pool of it’s depth of experience.

It’s bad enough that VFR singles are flying around at night in crappy weather but now couple that with pilots that mostly have a VFR instructor or tour pilot background. Even most instrument instructors have never flown a single hour in cloud.
Last edited by havick on Mon Nov 25 2019, 02:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby FerrariFlyer » Mon Nov 25 2019, 02:18

^^^^^^^^^^^

What Havick said.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Jeffory » Mon Nov 25 2019, 03:01

"Experienced" IFR pilots had to start somewhere though didn't they?
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby havick » Mon Nov 25 2019, 03:11

Jeffory wrote:"Experienced" IFR pilots had to start somewhere though didn't they?


Of course. But usually offshore or ex navy or dual rated guys. Plus the experience that would mentor junior guys is disappearing to the airlines.

EMS single pilot isn’t the place to be learning/flying true IMC for the first time as evidenced by an EMS CFIT crash every other month.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Dauphin » Mon Nov 25 2019, 06:23

havick wrote:It’s only going to get worse. The experience level in the EMS sector in the USA is tanking (even more so that it already was) now the airlines are hiring on helicopter pilots that have instrument experience, thus draining the IFR pool of it’s depth of experience.

It’s bad enough that VFR singles are flying around at night in crappy weather but now couple that with pilots that mostly have a VFR instructor or tour pilot background. Even most instrument instructors have never flown a single hour in cloud.


Havick - spot on! A few years ago I flew with an FAA instrument instructor in an R44 in order to sit for an FAA ATPL. I was stunned to hear that he had 1800 hours total, all obtained in R22 and R44 and had NEVER flown in IMC!
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Eric Hunt » Mon Nov 25 2019, 07:44

I gotta say that in the Bad Ol' Days, we flew Hueys and held instrument ratings. But the bird only had 1 ADF, im tasol, and stuff-all endurance, so it was pretty rare to go IMC in them. We used to launch to fly a twin-NDB approach at Canberra, out via Church Creek CCK, and after the first approach, if we couldn't get visual, we had to divert immediately for Nowra. So we did them in VMC to at least get a few runs over the target.

At Amberley, we would find a day where the cloudbase was well above the MAP, and go get some actual time, pop out the bottom safely and not have to worry about endurance. After around 6 years on Hueys I reckon I only had about 3 hours actual time out of 2500 hrs. Any other IF time was behind a screen, with a floppy piece of plastic-coated material velcro'd to the helmet, and we nearly went cross-eyed peeking out to the right through the pilot side window.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Fill-level » Mon Nov 25 2019, 08:08

As a side line to this report, I have approached some operators in the USA about a E3 visa , to fill there ever expanding list of positions advertised, Zero are prepared to do it.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Evil Twin » Mon Nov 25 2019, 08:28

Fill-level wrote:As a side line to this report, I have approached some operators in the USA about a E3 visa , to fill there ever expanding list of positions advertised, Zero are prepared to do it.


Interesting and I also thought along the same lines for a while. I'm surprised that the US doesn't have an equivalent work visa such as we do in Australia. However, they would no doubt be overwhelmed with applicants the moment they ever did.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Yankee » Mon Nov 25 2019, 09:40

EMS in USA.
It’s not really worth it. Although the NTSB report is egregious with a toxic work environment, most of the other operators don’t fare much better regarding work conditions and pilot pressures.
Flying around at night in marginal wx in a VFR single is not the most relaxing experience.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Fill-level » Mon Nov 25 2019, 10:01

Yankee wrote:EMS in USA.
It’s not really worth it. Although the NTSB report is egregious with a toxic work environment, most of the other operators don’t fare much better regarding work conditions and pilot pressures.
Flying around at night in marginal wx in a VFR single is not the most relaxing experience.


The operators I asked, had the usual 135, 145 helicopters with NVG, which is another story
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby BJM09 » Mon Nov 25 2019, 13:46

Not sure who you’ve worked for or where you get your info from, but I’ve worked for several EMS companies in the U.S. and there is absolutely no pressure to accept flights in marginal weather. The truth is, most of the reputable companies never question your decisions.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Yankee » Thu Nov 28 2019, 11:24

BJM09 wrote:Not sure who you’ve worked for or where you get your info from, but I’ve worked for several EMS companies in the U.S. and there is absolutely no pressure to accept flights in marginal weather. The truth is, most of the reputable companies never question your decisions.


Good for you BJM09! Working for reputable companies in the US! Well done for you.
You must be quite ignorant of the pilot pressures in these for profit organizations.
12 years ago before AO21 the marginal Weather CFIT accident rate was staggering.
This report is proof enough that pilot pressures exist.
The Mason city Iowa accident was another example of an inexperienced pilot blasting off into exceptionally horrible weather in a VFR single.
This pressure is what drives inexperienced pilots to put themselves and their crew in dangerous conditions in vfr single aircraft.
Fact! For every twin engine IFR capable air medical helicopter there are about four vfr singles!

The air medical industry in the US has become a horrid (on the whole) industry to be employed in. There is a mass exodus of experienced pilots leaving the industry for the airlines. These empty seats are being filled with less qualified people who are vulnerable to corporate pressures.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Yankee » Thu Nov 28 2019, 11:26

BMJ, maybe u could give a list of all the reputable companies u worked for so that other slappers would know “the best companies “ when they start to apply for jobs in the US.
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Re: NTSB Medevac crash report

Postby Yankee » Thu Nov 28 2019, 14:14

For the record, the last EMS company I worked for was Air Methods. The Area manager (who wasn’t a pilot) insisted that the helicopter be left on the “customers” rooftop pad in -35 degree c weather contrary to the RFM and company cold weather and operational procedures.

Corporate interference with operational control of helicopters is rampant in the US...
and training is severely lacking, possibly with the exception of Medtrans if they’re still doing their quarterly training.
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