The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

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ZK-Pilot
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby ZK-Pilot » Tue Sep 6 2011, 09:36

muppet wrote:Now this really is rather an interesting thread. And with some valid points on both sides of the debate. I share some of havick's concerns though... Certainly this issue looks set to become more of an issue as I suspect over the next few years there will be increased demand for 2 pilot ops (rub your hands together you low time guys looking for a start). Not just cos all the Vets are retiring, but also due to the change in operational flying. ie More IFR twins and more two pilot ops (which are way safer than single pilot IFR in my view - I think single pilot EMS especially is a poor option).

And I would be interested to hear comment on just who should be offering these 'internships'. IF CHC are offering them, then the young padewan will be trained in the ways of safety and doing it properly. You don't cut corners when working for an oil company. But when young co-pilots are given a 'chance' with an EMS operator (read 'they buy a year's experience) it would be good to know that the operator meets some kind of standard. Of course they are supposed to - that is the regulator's job - but there are some EMS operators around who do cut all kinds of corners and that can be a dangerous thing for impressionable young minds. I agree that such things offers a great first step, I just hope these guys don't get taken for a ride or taught bad habits. The answer? I don't know. Industry and regulator pressure to fly safe and obey the rules would be nice....


Interesting thread alright,
As Muppet and others alluded to it is a well proven and safe path for a low hour’d pilot to break into this growing industry. The structured approach taken with various large operators should instil some lifesaving and hopefully long term core values into what is essentially a very ‘mouldable’ stage of young careers.
My concern is that now that we see these ‘cadetships’ popping up offering in the case of HFT at Ardmore NZ for a course fee of $60K+ they may offer you (if successful) a 12 month position as a Co-pilot with one of the EMS operators.
In the case of one participating northern NZ EMS operator this is all well and good but from what I understand, the job will be shared with ‘several’ other existing Co-Pilots. Somebody with more knowledge may care to comment… I have to wonder where the flying hours and duty time will suddenly come from unless an existing pilot leaves or is willing to job share. You may be lucky to fly even if you are on duty and begin to wonder if the position is in name only. It would be a little bit more reassuring if the operators guarantee a trainee a certain amount of hours and experience.
I said previously this could be a great opportunity but also should be weighed up with the cost/rewards associated with it. If you spend $60K for essentially a 12 month contract only to be told ‘thanks, but move along, we have to make way for the next intern$’……
You may have a shiny new IR to your name but only end up with an extra 100-150 hours, Will this make you that much more employable? Maybe so.
All the best to those who are willing to put in the hard yards, it is a great qualification to achieve that has served me well over many years.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Tue Sep 6 2011, 23:55

Bootch wrote:Havick I'm with you mate. It is a sad thing really. I'm just a rookie, but from what I've seen so far starting out, NZ operators don't seem to want to up skill the up and come-er, they leave it to themselves. But what is training experiance at an aviation school compared to real on the job exposure? It doesn't compare.


You're right, but I wouldn't call it sad. It's certainly nice if an operator is willing to pay, but there is nothing wrong with letting someone upskill themselves, it's an expensive process and times are hard.

It sounds like you know quite a bit about the school if you're willing to compare it to on the job explosure with that much certainty, have you visited their facility?
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Andreas » Wed Sep 7 2011, 08:15

Hey,

I was interested in that course about 4-5 months ago. So I visited HFT and also talked to the EMS operators and other schools, pilots about that program. My information is now 5 months old but to let you know what I know:

Nobody has gone thru that course so far. It is recommended / you should have 500 hours to start that course anyway. Interesting was, that most other schools, operators said that price is way to low. It's based on H300, Simulator and only a few hours real Twin-Engine type-rating, IFR time.
I also talked to a few EMS pilots where the Co-pilots are supposed to get their hours up and they told me that the EMS operators are not too keen on that deal and they assured me that there wouldn't be enough work for more than 1 or 2 young co-pilots a year, so nobody's giving a guarantee for that year co-pilot.
You would get a fixed wing ppl and IFR rating for that money, maybe cheaper and you would get more out of it.

The school is only 1,5-2 years old but overall pretty good from what I saw. It's more like an academy then a school. They throw out a lot of CPL (H) students each year.

I don't know if something has changed or not but from what I know, I would not go for that IFR course. Also right what you guys said, nothing's more worth than real aviation experience out there.

Andy
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Wed Sep 7 2011, 09:35

Thanks for the info Andreas, Good to see someone forming their opinions based on real research.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Bootch » Wed Sep 7 2011, 10:28

temporary wrote:
Bootch wrote:Havick I'm with you mate. It is a sad thing really. I'm just a rookie, but from what I've seen so far starting out, NZ operators don't seem to want to up skill the up and come-er, they leave it to themselves. But what is training experiance at an aviation school compared to real on the job exposure? It doesn't compare.


You're right, but I wouldn't call it sad. It's certainly nice if an operator is willing to pay, but there is nothing wrong with letting someone upskill themselves, it's an expensive process and times are hard.

It sounds like you know quite a bit about the school if you're willing to compare it to on the job explosure with that much certainty, have you visited their facility?


I have visited a number of schools, them included. And while I do think that it is good that there are opportunities to unskill yourself, like has been posted above, it is sad that this seems to be the future for aviation. And as Andreas has said, there are only a few real IF and twin hours involved.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby SuperF » Wed Sep 7 2011, 12:26

Bootch, and others that are curious. One of the reasons that operators in NZ don't want to up skill junior pilots is that at the moment they don't have to. There are that many over qualified pilots unemployed, or looking at moving on, why spend money on an unknown quantity, and take the risk, when you can get someone who can already do the job.

Another reason they don't do it is the lack of loyalty that there can be out there, not all the time, but if you go spend all your time and effort training someone up, only to have them go work for the opposition... Makes you wonder what you are doing it all for, or they go and start up on their own,And take your clients with, the same clients that you have just spent the last few years giving rebates to for foulups, or telling them how good your new pilot is.... coz you are obviously making soo much money yourself.

Or they go to PNG as that is where the money seems to be at the moment. Good on the pilots as at the end of the day we all have to look after ourselves, but can be hard for an operator.

Not my view, just what guys say over a beer...

What is wrong with IFR pilots paying for their own training? Most ag pilots out there had to pay for their own rating, in NZ that is 75 odd hrs, so quite a few dollars involved there.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Pegs » Wed Sep 7 2011, 22:06

Andreas wrote:Hey,

I was interested in that course about 4-5 months ago. So I visited HFT and also talked to the EMS operators and other schools, pilots about that program. My information is now 5 months old but to let you know what I know:

Nobody has gone thru that course so far. It is recommended / you should have 500 hours to start that course anyway. Interesting was, that most other schools, operators said that price is way to low. It's based on H300, Simulator and only a few hours real Twin-Engine type-rating, IFR time.
I also talked to a few EMS pilots where the Co-pilots are supposed to get their hours up and they told me that the EMS operators are not too keen on that deal and they assured me that there wouldn't be enough work for more than 1 or 2 young co-pilots a year, so nobody's giving a guarantee for that year co-pilot.
You would get a fixed wing ppl and IFR rating for that money, maybe cheaper and you would get more out of it.

The school is only 1,5-2 years old but overall pretty good from what I saw. It's more like an academy then a school. They throw out a lot of CPL (H) students each year.

I don't know if something has changed or not but from what I know, I would not go for that IFR course. Also right what you guys said, nothing's more worth than real aviation experience out there.

Andy



For that money you can get a fixed wing CPL and IFR rating. :)
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Wed Sep 7 2011, 23:13

Bootch wrote:And as Andreas has said, there are only a few real IF and twin hours involved.


Wrong.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby QED » Thu Sep 8 2011, 06:33

Good luck to any prospective students but do your homework first. Just how many jobs are the in NZ flying IFR(H)?

For my money you'd be better shooting across the ditch, doing your IREX, ATPL exams and situating yourself for a job with CHC or Bristow. These companies will pay for the lot and pay you a decent salary whilst your doing it.

The scheme in question seems to be just a method for shooting even cheaper co-pilots ($25K P/A only a few years ago) into a trust run rescue service. I'm sure there has been some examination of how legal it is to advertise private training to prop up a charity. It all strikes me as a bit shonky.

Have a bit of professional pride... don't work for nothing and certainly don't PAY to work!
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby FlyHigh » Fri Sep 9 2011, 08:54

Interesting posts. I have been a longtime reader but never posted anything as I didn't have anything to add up until now.
HFT has taken over about 1.5 Years ago by a guy called Phil Maguire. He got this school due to a fiasco with the previous company that he had tried to make sure that his is not associated with called HeliFlight, for anyone interested in the background story should check out the threads about this on bladeslapper. Now from what I could gather and others have told me, Phil is more of a financier than a company owner and has next to nothing to do with how the company runs, I couldn't believe it at first but apparently he works as an airline pilot too so it sort of made sense at the time. I have spoken to a few students there who have referred me to others who have graduated there. Many have showed gratitude towards the place saying that it has been one of the most professional places to train in New Zealand. The chief flying instructors when I enquired were Sam and Dan, both ex air force. From what I could gather the place was run like air force as well and relies almost exclusively on student loans. In my research I had spoken to a few guys who had been to HFT and wanted to finance their training privately at their own pace, after talking to Phil they walked away disgusted and now are flying with an other company. What was more disturbing is that one of the ex students who I will not name told me over the phone that he had been charged a fuel surcharge fee on top of the agreed helicopter hire price under his contract, further some he had to take out an other loan (I think one to cover his hours in a turbine helicopter maybe someone here will be able to elaborate) to cover his training because the CPL loan wasn't big enough (even though after speaking to the loan provider; they insisted that the CPL course had to provide a qualification, you can not take an other loan to finish a qualification that the other loan had started) His words were "I have respect for everyone there but Phil is a ***** scam artist" - On the basis of that I didn't want to touch the place, I was going to visit them again before making the final decision when I heard they moved to an other hanger I called up the people again and found out that they are having to downsize. A while later I heard that the student loan scheme in NZ is getting slashed... coincidence? I don't know. Well, I hope this little bit helps to anyone who is looking at this internship there. Things would have probably changed since then as my information is a few months old now, but do your research people! This counts for any company, if this long experience taught me anything is that don't talk just to the students, talk to those who have gone through the program and now are (hopefully) working.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Bootch » Fri Sep 9 2011, 10:49

SuperF wrote:Bootch, and others that are curious. One of the reasons that operators in NZ don't want to up skill junior pilots is that at the moment they don't have to. There are that many over qualified pilots unemployed, or looking at moving on, why spend money on an unknown quantity, and take the risk, when you can get someone who can already do the job.

Another reason they don't do it is the lack of loyalty that there can be out there, not all the time, but if you go spend all your time and effort training someone up, only to have them go work for the opposition... Makes you wonder what you are doing it all for, or they go and start up on their own,And take your clients with, the same clients that you have just spent the last few years giving rebates to for foulups, or telling them how good your new pilot is.... coz you are obviously making soo much money yourself.

Or they go to PNG as that is where the money seems to be at the moment. Good on the pilots as at the end of the day we all have to look after ourselves, but can be hard for an operator.

Not my view, just what guys say over a beer...

What is wrong with IFR pilots paying for their own training? Most ag pilots out there had to pay for their own rating, in NZ that is 75 odd hrs, so quite a few dollars involved there.


Yea, I've heard it to. I just hope all these experiance pilots don't all escape without teaching me a thing or two first! NZ is where I'm from, this is where I want end up to flying, it ain't all about the cash.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby SuperF » Fri Sep 9 2011, 11:27

Don't worry, there are few a good guys out there that can teach you a thing or two, it's just not the guys that tell you how good they are.....
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby scottynz » Fri Sep 9 2011, 11:58

OK here goes, Ive been reading with interest the views posted on this topic and while certain posts have been informitive and useful, with the views of experienced pilots giving me plenty to think about. There are posts that are not completely accurate.
I would like to put a few things straight if I may. I have recently finished my CPL at HFT at Ardmore and, hopefully, I will soon be starting my Instructors rating with them. The reason I wish to do my Instructors course with HFT is that I have found the staff there to be excellent, and that includes Phil. The school is run extremely professionally with emphasis on safety at all times, the machines are maintained meticulously. There are other reasons of course but I am in danger of waffling.
The course is "air force" style and that suits some students more than others.
I find it very strange that the person previously mentioned had to pay extra for his turbine rating, as I can categorically say that it is included in the CPL. The only people I have heard that did not get their turbine rating were the people who struggled with the CPL and had to use the turbine hours to attain the required CPL standard.
I can also state that I know the pilot who is flying up North on the MEIFR placement and every time I see him and ask how hes doing, he replies that hes loving it and flying enough hrs for it to be worthwhile.
I suppose with every school there will be good stories and bad, depending on who you speak to. I just happen to have good ones about HFT. I do know that some of the students didnt enjoy it though, which is a shame.
Pilots thinking on doing the MEIFR course should research as much as they possibly can. It might be a student loan, but you still have to pay the f#%k back.
If anyone wishes to speak to me for more info on this school, PM me and I am happy to answer any questions.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby NzPilot272 » Fri Sep 9 2011, 12:32

I have to agree with Scotty to, I trained at HFT and I thought it was a great place, it has well trained instructors and a friendly atmosphere, the reason for having a air force way is that it provides structure that helps the learning pilot greatly and is not a willy nilly decision been made about your training, you gain full experience in a wide range of training and I can happily say there are a lot of people there with great commercial experience and have great stories and small things that you don't learn unless experienced, I think that it provides a great step for the new pilots in trying to gain employment which these days can be rather tricky, and at n.e.s intern-shipp there are only two people chosen NOT several so there are great opportunities to experience that most people wont and Phil is one of the greats, and knows many people in the industry, and has many “golden nuggets” and I can say that I am happily flying over seas with great employment but as Scotty said there people who like having there five cents worth of opinions Regards NzPilot
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby DaveL » Fri Sep 9 2011, 15:34

I've been watching this thread with interest over the last couple of days and I have to say there are alot of people making comments on here that are just plain wrong. How do I know? I used to work there!

HFT was started in late 2009 by Phil Maguire. HFT took over the contract to provide helicopter training under the Whitireia student loan funded course.

From the outset it has been Phils intention to provide a point of difference from the way other student loan schools are run. To assist in making this happen Phil brought in a number of highly qualified staff to manage the day to day operation of the school. This included 2 highly experienced ex NZDF instructor pilots. Who better to manage a training school than 2 guys who had been doing the same thing in the military?

Phil is not a helicopter instructor so he does not get involved in the operational side of teaching, although he does spend alot of time with the students on the ground passing on "gold nuggets" from his vast experience in helicopter aviation around the globe. His primary focus is on developing new opportunities to grow the business.

From my experience and from what I have seen of other student loan schools HFT offers the most structured and professionally run course in NZ. The entire course from effects of controls through to CPL flight test is mapped out with the objectives of each lesson clearly defined. This is quite different from the laissez faire style of learning the seems to be the norm around NZ.

From what I know HFT are the only school that sticks to the NZ AIA guidelines for student progression on a loan funded course. Ie fail to go solo by a certain number of hours and you can be exited from the course.

HFT are also the only school that I am aware of the run a full selection process for potential students. Just making it through the front door isn't good enough like it is at other NZ loan funded schools.

Phil has run a number of aviation businesses and has hired and fired many pilots over the years, as such if someone comes in wanting to spend a large sum of money on learning to fly but hasn't done their research and shows some real passion for it he will tell them to go away, think about it, and come back in a month if they're really serious. I think that's a lot more ethical than just taking money off someone who has no real idea what they're getting themselves in for.

As for the MEIFR course, it was developed after much consultation with the main players in the IFR field in NZ. It is not "buying your way into a job" it is simply paying for a further qualification to up skill yourself in a competitive industry. The internship, if successful, is a chance to gain more valuable experience with one of NZs busiest EMS operators (3 S76s).

The HFT way may not suit everyone, do your research, go see them, get actual facts from people that know what they are talking about rather than hearsay on the Internet.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Low_Level_Hell » Thu Sep 22 2016, 10:30

What ever happened to this flight school ??
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Yankee » Tue Sep 27 2016, 09:31

My guess is that they couldn't find enough mugs to be profitable.
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