The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

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havick
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The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Mon Sep 5 2011, 02:50

http://www.hft.school.nz/training/meifr.html

$60k for a multi-ifr ticket with the possible one year placement as a co-jo. Sounds like they've picked up on the idea of the Jetstar/Qantas scheme.

Hopefully for the guys out there trying to make their way up in the industry that this 'program' isn't they way of they future, and that the like of CHC, Bristow etc etc continue to grow their own pilots.

** What happens when your one year is finished (out on your arse with SFA consolidation time to show for your $60k)?
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Big Beres » Mon Sep 5 2011, 05:52

Would be interest to know where/who they get to do their MEIFR, not too many MEIFR operators/trainers in NZ , plus last line I checked for multi engine, two pilots ops in NZ you need an APTL, can't think of any NZ operators/trainers doing doing ATPL (H) Theory either, but I stand to be corrected.

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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Mon Sep 5 2011, 06:18

**edited.

What happens with the 'placement pilots' once their year is up?
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby DoorsOff » Mon Sep 5 2011, 09:28

What happens with the 'placement pilots' once their year is up?????

Yep, you guessed it, they get to rejoin the Back of the Que with all of us newbe's - Cool Huh!!! :roll:
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Mon Sep 5 2011, 09:50

That's what I thought. The general consensus being decent operators train/grow their own pilots or hire experienced guys.

I am just hoping that prospective guys/girls do a little bit of research before doing their dough$$ hence raising this thread in the first place.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Bootch » Mon Sep 5 2011, 10:03

I'm pretty sure that Nelson Aviation College occasionaly do ATPL theory courses.

And that course is a bit falsely represented on the website.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby skypig » Mon Sep 5 2011, 10:53

Only the PIC requires an ATPL. (There is a substantial hour requirement to hold an ATPL, not just the exam.)

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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Tue Sep 6 2011, 00:41

havick wrote:That's what I thought. The general consensus being decent operators train/grow their own pilots or hire experienced guys.

I am just hoping that prospective guys/girls do a little bit of research before doing their dough$$ hence raising this thread in the first place.


Speaking of research, have you done any? Has anyone called them to find out more? Probably best to find out first hand rather than listen to people from an internet forum.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Tue Sep 6 2011, 01:07

temporary... the reason I brought this up was the fact that there are a lot of similarities here of the direction that the airlines have taken, which starter in circa 2000. Now look at the way they are headed.

I applaud schools that can offer advanced training. The thing that I find disconcerting is essentially the pay for a co-pilot position scheme.

As it stands at the moment, those of us who are fortunate enough to be in the right or left seat of a multi-IFR machine generally speaking have had the required training costs covered by the governement/military or an employer (CHC, Bristow, AHPL etc). I would hate to see a change in expectation that future guys coming through the ranks are required to fork out for said training. I fear that if enough of these 'placement programs or cadetships' are taken up then it will be the norm rather than an exception to the rule.

Can I personally change anything, no. Does it affect me, no. Merely bringing to everyones attention that it was these types of self funded programs that were one of the catalysts for the airline industry T&C's downward slide.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Tue Sep 6 2011, 04:32

havick wrote:temporary... the reason I brought this up was the fact that there are a lot of similarities here of the direction that the airlines have taken, which starter in circa 2000. Now look at the way they are headed.


All fair points, it would be interesting to hear what the school has to say about it. It certainly sounds would help a career, even if it was only for one year. I do believe though that it won't be fresh CPL's going into the meifr course, but rather experienced instructors who already have quite a bit of time under their belt.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby JT » Tue Sep 6 2011, 05:56

At the end of the day, if the positive out of it is being exposed to some professional SOP's, ME IFR Op's, Multi-crew, CRM and safety management systems then so be it. Not everyone can afford it, so not sure if everyone will take the leap into it. Good opportunity for those who want to do it. Get 12 months of good experience then start working on building your hours with good knowledge, operational skills, awareness and exposure to weather and professional operations. Start good habits early.

The helicopter industry (Aus + NZ) can't cater for the types of numbers the airlines turn over every year. The airline cadet scheme's are fine "IF OPERATED CORRECTLY", they are the way of the future for supply and demand. As long as the standards, training and management is in place to support the pilots as they progress (Eg: RAAF) then it shows the model can work. There is no substitute for experience, but through high standards of training, High levels of operational knowledge, SOP's and exposure to working with experienced pilots it set's you up well to handle most situations. On a different angle, if you sat in the left seat of a R44, B206, AS350 and flew with experienced guys fire fighting, sling Op's, Charter, Air work etc. You would gain a great deal of knowledge through watching and learning. Exposure is great but often not available on small aircraft with limited seats.

"MY" personal opinion is time in a Co-Pilot seat would be great for every pilot at the start (If it was something they were interested in), then go back to building PIC time on smaller aircraft before working your way back up to a Command on something you were originally a Co-Pilot on.

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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Tue Sep 6 2011, 06:12

JT. I don't disagree with anything you've said.

I actually think that any exposure is great. What worries me is with this model, that people have to buy their way into that seat. Granted more often than not when people are starting out in their career that they've bought their way into a AS350 or B206 job etc, however MEIFR is a whole different level with regard to outlay etc. Do we really want this becoming the norm/expectation for the future bunch of pilots coming through the ranks?

If in the future these sort of opportunities are limited to those who can stump up the cash, then are you really having access to the whole potential pool of pilots?

I think the best model is that of Telstra Childflight (they pay for the training in-house). Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. The way I understand is that they have an office/co-pilot position, most of these guys do a few years and then either manage to get themselves a captain upgrade or move on to the likes of CHC, Bristow etc as co-jo's or whatever they feel they want to move onto.

some companies I have seen go out of their way to some degree to expose 'junior pilots' (I use the term loosely because most of these guys are very experienced crewies) that are crewies that have gone away and got their CPL(H) on their own back. Enabling them to be positioned for line positions down the track
Last edited by havick on Tue Sep 6 2011, 10:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Tue Sep 6 2011, 06:56

havick wrote:I think the best model is that of Telstra Childflight (they pay for the training in-house). Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. The way I understand is that they have an office/co-pilot position, most of these guys do a few years and then either manage to get themselves a captain upgrade or move on to the likes of CHC, Bristow etc as co-jo's or whatever they feel they want to move onto.


Do you think they do it that way because it's better ? or because they're forced to? If I approached them and said "I'll pay you to train and rate me meifr, provided you employ me for one year", and I met all of their standards as a commercial pilot, do you really think they would turn it down?

What I keep hearing from some of the older operators is that they want to give back to the aviation community, and help pilots get the experience to really get their careers going, but they don't want to pay for it.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Tue Sep 6 2011, 07:40

temporary.. They probably wouldn't take the cash because they're not a flight school, they can train in-house employees as per CAR217 req's but not 'students', there's a subtle difference between the two.

Heliwest I think is another example of a company that takes previous students and puts them out bush on a R44/B206 doing scenics and then for suitable candidates they co-pilot endorse and co-pilot IR-me on the B0105 and tour them to their mining AME contract. I'm not privvy to what $$ changes hands (if any), but I am led to believe they are bonded (time) for training undertaken. I am led also believe that Heliwest endeavour to employ their own pilots/students where possible, even though that they can offer all the above training under their flight school. Anyone that actually works there feel free to jump in and correct me if my facts our slightly out (granted it's not entirely the same, but it's similar).

I guess the reality is at the end of the day that there's always someone out there that's happy to shell out for something that should be provided to them (whether it's under a bonded agreement or not). What erks me is that now there seems to be a 'formalised' process that essentially undermines the industry. The whole scenario reminds of Tasair and how they offer a pay for ICUS scheme on their Chieftans and Navahos.
Last edited by havick on Tue Sep 6 2011, 07:57, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby muppet » Tue Sep 6 2011, 07:46

Now this really is rather an interesting thread. And with some valid points on both sides of the debate. I share some of havick's concerns though... Certainly this issue looks set to become more of an issue as I suspect over the next few years there will be increased demand for 2 pilot ops (rub your hands together you low time guys looking for a start). Not just cos all the Vets are retiring, but also due to the change in operational flying. ie More IFR twins and more two pilot ops (which are way safer than single pilot IFR in my view - I think single pilot EMS especially is a poor option).

And I would be interested to hear comment on just who should be offering these 'internships'. IF CHC are offering them, then the young padewan will be trained in the ways of safety and doing it properly. You don't cut corners when working for an oil company. But when young co-pilots are given a 'chance' with an EMS operator (read 'they buy a year's experience) it would be good to know that the operator meets some kind of standard. Of course they are supposed to - that is the regulator's job - but there are some EMS operators around who do cut all kinds of corners and that can be a dangerous thing for impressionable young minds. I agree that such things offers a great first step, I just hope these guys don't get taken for a ride or taught bad habits. The answer? I don't know. Industry and regulator pressure to fly safe and obey the rules would be nice....
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Tue Sep 6 2011, 08:39

havick wrote:I guess the reality is at the end of the day that there's always someone out there that's happy to shell out for something that should be provided to them (whether it's under a bonded agreement or not). What erks me is that now there seems to be a 'formalised' process that essentially undermines the industry. The whole scenario reminds of Tasair and how they offer a pay for ICUS scheme on their Chieftans and Navahos.


Why should it be provided for them? And how is it undermining the industry exactly? By reducing the cost of employing someone to the operator?

Noone is buying a years experience at an EMS operator. It's pretty clear on their website that they are buying their MEIFR only, with the posibilty of a job with an EMS operator, and I imagine that job would need to be earned to some extent.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Tue Sep 6 2011, 08:52

I've said my piece. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we both have valid points on each side of the debate, it really depends on where you sit in the industry as to which points make the most amount of sense to you.

I feel there's no right or wrong answer.. It's a good debate though.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby temporary » Tue Sep 6 2011, 09:13

havick wrote:I've said my piece. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we both have valid points on each side of the debate, it really depends on where you sit in the industry as to which points make the most amount of sense to you.

I feel there's no right or wrong answer.. It's a good debate though.


It is a good discussion, and I wasn't saying you were wrong, I legitimately want to know the answers to those questions.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby havick » Tue Sep 6 2011, 09:19

if you goto the other yellow aviation forum, and search for a thread 'AUGUST 24th - QANTAS' as well as 'Jetstar legal action update' have a good read through the threads and then see the similarities that I'm drawing from them. Yes, a lot of it is to do with offshoring jobs, asset stripping, incorrect allocation of costs, but have a look at what one of the catalysts for the whole thing is and you may see where I'm coming from. (read LCC model)

Before anyone says that I have too much time on my hands, well frankly I do.. Sitting SAR at a base that's in a very quiet period at the moment before the flying ramps up again in a few weeks.
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Re: The next Jetstar cadethip scheme (for helicopters)??

Postby Bootch » Tue Sep 6 2011, 09:35

Havick I'm with you mate. It is a sad thing really. I'm just a rookie, but from what I've seen so far starting out, NZ operators don't seem to want to up skill the up and come-er, they leave it to themselves. But what is training experiance at an aviation school compared to real on the job exposure? It doesn't compare.

The people on the course are all instructors at the flight school, and while it says a chance at the co-pilot seat, after this first course has had its way, you wont have a s#!t show in hell getting through the line up of current trainies. They'll be around for a while and they'll have first dibs for sure. It looks good to have it written on the website though I'm sure. So for the next intake hopefuls, don't count on it. All that dosh gone down another hole and out on the street, next please.

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