Instructor Training Endorsment

Endosements, Ratings and Certificates.
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bladepitch
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby bladepitch » Wed Nov 7 2018, 12:13

Ok.

I held a grade 1 FIR. 2009-2013 Low level approval and sling endorsed, NVFR rating.
I went offshore, then EMS, Now I want to go back and teach my mate on my time off how to fly at a local flight school who will allow this all to happen..

I have come to you to get back up to speed. I want to teach all areas of the new syllabus plus he wants a sling endorsement and NVFR rating.

What do i need to do to get recurrent..
Last edited by bladepitch on Wed Nov 7 2018, 23:54, edited 1 time in total.
heli2o
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby heli2o » Wed Nov 7 2018, 12:49

Mike Becker wrote:First part you should get sorted is the ground work by doing a PMI and the PIRC exam. A fixed wing school can even do that or even do by correspondence unless you already have a Cert IV in training and assessing or a tertiary teaching qual from your past.
.


Does anybody know of a school at YSBK or YSCN that could do this?
Niko
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Niko » Wed Nov 7 2018, 13:34

bladepitch wrote:Ok.

I held a grade 1 FIR. 2009-2013 Low level approval and sling endorsed, NVFR endorsement.
I went offshore, then EMS, Now I want to go back and teach my mate on my time off how to fly at a local flight school who will allow this all to happen..

I have come to you to get back up to speed. I want to teach all areas of the new syllabus plus he wants a sling endorsement and NVFR rating.

What do i need to do to get recurrent..


Depends what has expired

In short you need Flight Instructor Proficiency check - however the way you want to conduct this test may vary. If you're smart about it, the following way may be of advantage to the thickness of your wallet

When you do it, request to do low level as part of the flight - This takes care of your Low Level and Sling and resets the timer back to 24 months (as long as your part 61 license has those privileges grandfathered in)
When you do it, request to meet the requirements for a SEH flight review if yours is not current
When you do it, request to do the flight part of the proficiency check late in the afternoon so you can fly past last light and demonstrate competency under NVFR SEH and reset that flight review requirement to 24 months

This assumes you will not be instructing anyone on any of the twins, as unfortunately this introduces several more things that you have to do. As all of them are types and CASA thinks that if you do your flight review at night in a single engine machine you're not competent to do the same in twins (and vise versa)

Honestly, I can't add anything else to what has been said before. CASA have stuffed up. It's been 4 years since the introduction and it's a mess, it's mostly unnecessary and not well thought through and I still don't know answers to basic questions. However you spin it, I'm certain that there is a number of pilots who are breaking the rules, not because of ill intent, but because the licensing laws are so confusing. It's a minefield. I almost did just that when I was booked to fly the R44 - My instructor proficiency was about to expire, but my flight review was current, however my flight review was done in a Bell 206, which of course meant that I couldn't fly either the R44 or the R22. Luckily I remembered and got it done,

Anyway, if you haven't figured, it pays to hit F5 on the casa website every-time you check the BOM.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Heliduck » Wed Nov 7 2018, 19:33

@Mike Becker - I have a simple example. I have never held any type of instructor rating, I have an Aerial Application rating H & F, Sling, LL, Mustering, NVFR.
I want to be able to conduct check & training for company pilots & new initial training & issue of Aerial application F, LL & Sling.
I don’t want to conduct PPL, CPL or NVFR training.

Simple?
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby _chopper » Wed Nov 7 2018, 22:25

Clear as mud a. I'm glad everyone else is having as much trouble as I am with this rubbish. Am it's certainly sparked more conversation than I originally would have thought.

So here is the situation I find myself in. I have an instructor rating with the following endorsements: LL, Sling, G1, CLR SEH, G2, DF, NVFR. All helicopter.
I didn't know about the G1 before 61 grandfathering across into the FIR TE but that wouldn't help me anyway since I'm pretty sure my upgrade from G2 to G1 was the triggering event for the issue of part 61 licence.

So yes what I want is the FIR TE. the flight instructor rating training endorsement that will allow me to train a student for the issue of a flight instructor rating.
I have been told by someone that this is a 10 hour course (with a lot of ground school) and a flight test. I have been told by someone else that it is a flight test only if I am confident I can demonstrate competency out of the gate. I have been told by CASA to go away and find someone in industry that can help me.

I have also been told by CASA that our 141 is unlikely to be approved to conduct instructor training because the HOO is not experienced enough even if said HOO has a FIR TE...

I also have a very experienced long line, fire bucketing and aerial application (ag) pilot that wants a flight instructor rating and a training endorsement for Low level and aerial application so they can teach these things and eventually apply for a examiner rating to conduct flight tests. Again just in their speciality. No doing any training for RPL, PPL or CPL so no G3 needed. So they will need to do a PMI course and pass the exam. But then what course of flying training do they need? and who can do the flight test?
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Revhead » Wed Nov 7 2018, 22:42

Interesting thread developing here.

Mike or anyone who understands this ‘no cost to the industry stuff’

I have a G2 CLR SEH with DF, GTE, LL and FF. G2 is in need of a re-currency. Have enough G2 instructor hours to have been G1 ages ago. Haven’t instructed for a while. Was working in a busy flight school and doing everything a G1 could do except HFR. Was doing the majority of pre flight test sorties and approving students for flight test to CFI/ATO.
Am told that I can’t upgrade at the moment to G1 as I haven’t instructed for a bit and would have to say G2 at the moment (ok that’s understandable) but was told I could be a CFI ? Is this the case? As a G2 can I do a TE to train someone to G2 & G3 and send them off for a test to an FE?? I’m told also that as a G2 I can do HFR’s now? Even a CASA FOI indicated that he thought that was the case but he wasn’t sure (that was a year and a half ago so he would know more by now)

Also would add LL/sling TE at the same time and would like to look at TE/FE for Fire endorsement.

I’ve tried to read part61, admittedly not as hard as I should have and will do, but if it was written in the same vein as the Regs we could read and understand more easily without needing a law degree. Plus part 61 is harder to navigate to find straight answers.

Unfortunately it is what it is and it is what we have so as Mike said it is what we have to deal with even if it is the biggest pile of dung we’ve ever seen. Though in saying that it may have ‘some’ advantages in some very small areas.

Any help would be much appreciated

Thanks
RH
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby tinman » Wed Nov 7 2018, 22:49

I honestly don't see how anyone would bother getting a FIR these days. It was hard enough back when I got my initial, let alone put up with this total and utter tosh.

Thanks a lot, CASA, for this abomination, all at no additional cost to the industry.

Good luck to all of you out there trying to get a break. The other option is of course to find an employer like Mike Becker, and get through the whole process rather painlessly. But if I was go get a FIR just so I can try and find a job in the training market, I would not even contemplate putting myself through this. All this Part 61 really does is put small operators out of business.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Wed Nov 7 2018, 22:49

Heliduck!!!! I thought you said simple but here goes

Can you separate the internal check and training for the Company as opposed to wanting to issue someone a new rating or endorsement under Part 61?

Internal training and checking can be specific to the organisation and may not be required to meet any Part 61 requirements hence the separate term OPC (Operational Proficiency Check) and you may be nominated internally to do that checking as a senior Company pilot without holding a FIR. But none of that training will count towards a Part 61 qualification and you can only check already qualified pilots in ratings and endorsements you also hold.
If you need to train for and then have issued Part 61 qualifications this is when you need your instructor rating qualifications and the majority of this should be done through a Part 141 certificate holder (note you no longer need an AOC)

You need to do a PMI and conduct the PIRC exam
You need to do the FIR common elements once. That would be about 5 hours including instructor seat famil, hand over take over, how to manage an emergency in the type then you have to nominate at least 1 TE and train for that before being tested for that. The addition of your first TE is classified as a FIR initial. Any subsequent TEs are an addition to an existing operational rating (the FIR in this case)
In your case you will need the following TEs
AA, LL, Mustering, NVFR. Each requires its own course and a separate test BUT if you start with say AA then RPL can be applied for LL and Mustering so the course can be reduced as everything is competency based.
The LL is a rating and the sling is an endorsement on that rating.
The LL is a pre-requisite for the AA although the LL TE is not a pre-requisite for the AA TE (I believe)
How many hours are required for each course will depend on
Any requirements in Part 61 and the syllabus put forward by the school and approved by CASA. We can all be different now but it is competency based (in the most part)

My suggestion is you go to Airwork (or another approved Ag school) and get the AA, LL and Mustering component sorted together then go to a school like us for the NVFR. (maybe someone else would be cheaper as we only have JRs)
Try to go to a school that also has an instructor that is a Flight Examiner otherwise you could get all the training done and no one to test you and sign you off. This has been our biggest nightmare over the last 4 years as when the new rules were introduced and new ratings and endorsements created no one was a FE so 040s were common.

Now as you can see determining what you actually need and confirming it is now going to take some thought and manipulating, there will be multiple ways to skin the cat depending on what the school has, is willing/wanting to do and your pocket. So you will find that schools are going to get you to pay a fee to go through your information and history as an individual before they will quote on a course as the process to go through is onerous and time consuming so someone (you) is going to have to pay.
After an initial enquiry we will go back, and for $250 we will put it all together for you.
If you do not want to pay, no problem go to the next place. Someone will always do it for free but they may not be around next year and probably have not got everything you need.

I went back and read what you asked. I have said this based on helicopter only. Is the F you refer to fixed wing???? If so the same applies but you then need to do it in a fixed wing.
Am sure there is RPL that can be applied across the categories, again that's another look into the books and another interpretation. More time, more money.

The new regs are really based on 1 person, 1 job, 1 type.
Our world is 1 person, multiple jobs, multiple types. The airlines we are not!!!!

Simple?????

I will answer a couple more later but I have to go to work for a living!
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Slapstick » Wed Nov 7 2018, 22:57

At the risk of being abused I'll put in my two cents..

**Legal disclaimer: This is not directed toward anyone**

Are the new changes terrible? Yes, yes they are.

But if people put the same amount of time and effort into actually reading and trying to understand the new regs as they did complaining about them then you would probably find they're not that hard to wrap your head around.

There seems to be a lot of people that take others advice about it and run with that. Pick up the book yourself and get it from the horse's mouth. I do understand that people may struggle to find the time to be able to do that so it can be easier to ask someone.

Now that I have firmly planted those crosshairs on my chest.. fire away.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Fill-level » Wed Nov 7 2018, 23:13

RevHead...

You say you have not instructed for a while , so its unlikely you meet the competency for the Grade 1, without additional mass briefings and knowledge of the CFI/HOO

A Grade 2 instructor can now do HFR's.

If you can find a school that has the 141 and can teach G2/G3 training endorsements, there should be nothing stopping you doing that, and passing a final test with a flight examiner.

Same applies to the Low level and sling.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Revhead » Wed Nov 7 2018, 23:47

Hey Fill Level,

Thanks and yeah I get it about the current competency.

Thanks for the further info.

I’ll keep an eye out for others who have tips too.

Slapstick,
I agree but if I can get a few answers to some questions then I can zero in on the important stuff to get stuck into instead getting bogged down in the superfluous cr@p that will just be a total frustration.

No cross hairs here. All good. :D

RH
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby _chopper » Thu Nov 8 2018, 00:08

But if people put the same amount of time and effort into actually reading and trying to understand the new regs as they did complaining about them then you would probably find they're not that hard to wrap your head around.


Reading the rules and understanding them won't tell you who can conduct the course (operators and instructors). And you can't ask CASA because they won't say who has what approvals to do what. Nor will it tell you what is actually in the course because they are all competency based and just need to comply with the MOS. And as Mike has pointed out, the rules allow for RPL so it makes every individual instance unique. Hence the need to find the operators and instructors that can conduct the courses so you can ask them.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Slapstick » Thu Nov 8 2018, 04:05

And hence what I said with my legal disclaimer...
The Scarlett Harlot
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby The Scarlett Harlot » Thu Nov 8 2018, 04:30

Firstly, thank you Mike for your time on this topic. In addition to the numerous chestnuts of information out there, two things about Mike’s contribution to this thread give me great concern;

If a bloke that lives and breathes this stuff in a daily basis feels that he needs to include these two lines in his answer;


Mike Becker wrote:I will start by saying I may not have it completely right yet so forgive me if I am wrong

Man, head hurts thinking about it.



We as an industry have a serious problem. Question is, does anybody in the right places hear?
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havick
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby havick » Thu Nov 8 2018, 04:56

Mike makes a great point in that, training organizations basically have a person employed just to interpret regs and quote students/candidates on case by case basis.

This would normally have been done by line pilots, but now sadly nearly needs a lawyer.
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The Scarlett Harlot
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby The Scarlett Harlot » Thu Nov 8 2018, 06:02

Kinda makes the English Language requirement superfluous dunnit :roll:
Mike Becker
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Thu Nov 8 2018, 06:28

OK Last one then I am out!!

Revhead wrote

I have a G2 CLR SEH with DF, GTE, LL and FF. G2 is in need of a re-currency. Have enough G2 instructor hours to have been G1 ages ago. Haven’t instructed for a while. Was working in a busy flight school and doing everything a G1 could do except HFR. Was doing the majority of pre flight test sorties and approving students for flight test to CFI/ATO.
Am told that I can’t upgrade at the moment to G1 as I haven’t instructed for a bit and would have to say G2 at the moment (ok that’s understandable) but was told I could be a CFI ? Is this the case? As a G2 can I do a TE to train someone to G2 & G3 and send them off for a test to an FE?? I’m told also that as a G2 I can do HFR’s now? Even a CASA FOI indicated that he thought that was the case but he wasn’t sure (that was a year and a half ago so he would know more by now)

Don't worry about being a G1 at the moment. You can do everything as a G2 (including HFRs) with TEs except be the head of a school. (Old CFI) and even then I have a feeling there is a way around it.
To start instructing again you need to do a FPC (Flight Instructor Proficiency Check) BUT if you add a training endorsement to an existing operational rating you will automatically have your FIR renewed (sorry FPC)
I am assuming that when you say you have DF, GTE, LL and FF these are TEs on your FIR and not just the basic ratings???? A question that first needs to be answered. Also were you a G2 teaching all these things before the change over in which case you get grandfather rights or are these all new additions to your Part 61 licence???


Also would add LL/sling TE at the same time and would like to look at TE/FE for Fire endorsement.

OK so this intimates to me that you do not yet have LL, Sling TEs so you would need to add these. Fire is separate as this is done under an instrument and tested under an 040 (only a few of us can do that) and is outside of the FIR at the moment


I’ve tried to read part61, admittedly not as hard as I should have and will do, but if it was written in the same vein as the Regs we could read and understand more easily without needing a law degree. Plus part 61 is harder to navigate to find straight answers.

Unfortunately it is what it is and it is what we have so as Mike said it is what we have to deal with even if it is the biggest pile of dung we’ve ever seen. Though in saying that it may have ‘some’ advantages in some very small areas.

The advantages are in a pilot wanting only to instruct for 1 particular thing, you only need to train for that. The disadvantage is in the helicopter world we typically do them all so our training burden and testing burden has got out of hand.


Any help would be much appreciated

Ultimately its not hard, but it is complicated because its new, just needs someone to look at your licence, logbook and portal to see what you really have according to CASA as opposed to what you think you have based on what you have been doing for the last number of decades and then someone like me can come up with a plan to fix it based on what you want or need. Sometimes what you think you want or need are two different things based on how the rules are read.
Here's the catch. It won't be cheap!


Good luck
Thanks
RH
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Heliduck » Thu Nov 8 2018, 07:59

@Mike Becker - wow, what an absolute hornets nest! Given my simple example I can understand why you need to charge to sort this labyrinth out. The “F” I referred to was for fire as the Aerial application rating is now either “H” for spraying etc & “F” for fire.
You’re information has however made possible financially what I considered not possible yesterday so Thanks for putting the time into explaining all that, I appreciate it. Time to revisit the operational instructional side I think, I already have your PMI book so it should be “pretty simple” right? :D
"Plan twice...Fly once"
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Revhead » Thu Nov 8 2018, 21:08

Mike,

Thanks so much for your time to help everyone on here and thank you for your response to my questions.

Everything I have was CAR 5 and grandfathered over to Part 61. I haven’t added anything since Part 61 other than FF which was grandfathered as well. Coming from the CAR 5 thinking that you could teach what you were endorsed on e.g if you had LL, sling, you could teach those, and whatever machine you were endorsed on you could issue endorsement on including turbine which then covered the GTE requirement that fixed wing guys had to do as a separate course. I would assume that these things grandfathered over though my licence doesn’t read like all of it did as TE’s?? maybe I needed to fill out more paperwork when applying for PART61 licence??

Part 61 helped me lose interest (amongst other things) in the industry and I bailed out for a while. Been back in part time for about a year and a half but hadn’t looked at going back to instructing until more recently so hence, lack of part 61 knowledge (interest). Obviously I’ll get myself “all over it” now.

Thanks again
RH
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Thu Nov 8 2018, 21:35

OK if it was all done under CAR 5 before Sept 14 you just need to fill out more paperwork and give evidence.
This in itself is fraught with issues and once it gets to CLARC it all falls apart as they are non aviators and are simply administrators ticking boxes and if you do not give them what they need to tick a box its game over.
In your case you are much better off going to a school that has all the approvals, do an RPL and then a FE can structure a test and fix you up. In the long run its easier and cheaper and will save you a bunch of time.
You need to do some flying anyway, so don't waste it and get your licence sorted at the same time.

By the way FF is actually Formation Flight but I am assuming you actually have the Fire endorsement which is referred to as FIRE H (even though you conduct Fire Fighting (FF) activities!!) under the AA Rating

Good luck

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