Instructor Training Endorsment

Endosements, Ratings and Certificates.
_chopper
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Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby _chopper » Mon Nov 5 2018, 01:12

Hi all,
Instructor rating training endorsements. Anyone here know a school that can do them? Someone who can do both the training and the flight test would be preferred.
Fill-level
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Fill-level » Mon Nov 5 2018, 07:29

What training endorsements do you need ?
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chopperdavo
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby chopperdavo » Mon Nov 5 2018, 11:14

Where are you based?
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hand in pants
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby hand in pants » Mon Nov 5 2018, 22:21

Touchdown in Wollongong.

Talk to Peter.
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_chopper
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby _chopper » Mon Nov 5 2018, 23:02

What training endorsements do you need ?


An instructor rating training endorsement.

Where are you based?


Southern NSW but I'll travel anywhere in Aus.

Touchdown in Wollongong. Talk to Peter.

Thanks HIP. He's on my list.

I'm looking to find everyone who can do it so I can have some options for timing, location ect. So far I have Peter at Touchdown and Dave Adams at Specialist Helicopters.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby jandakotflyer » Tue Nov 6 2018, 02:47

Try Airwork Helicopters at Caboolture.
Mike Becker
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Tue Nov 6 2018, 08:36

Mate, you need to be more specific as in the old days just asking for an instructor rating meant that you did a G2. Easy!
Today it is a completely new world as you have a multiple of options hence the question "what do you need it for?"
The answer is now complex but ultimately it could save you a lot of money if you ask the right question and then get the right course and qualification for what you need.
Unfortunately for some instructors it is much more expensive as the helicopter pilot typically needs a wide range of Training Endorsements in order to do their job unlike the fixed wing world which typically starts with one Training Endorsement (the G3) and slowly and progressively builds on them over time.

Today a Part 61 FIR is simply a PMI theory course, followed by the theory exam (PIRC) and then about 5 hours of common FIR flight elements.
Then you need to select at least 1 training endorsement based on what you are intending to use it for.

If you want to teach people to fly and train towards the issue of a RPL, PPL or CPL then you need at the very least a G3 Training endorsement
If you are wanting it to teach someone how to low fly you only need a Low Level Training Endorsement.
If you want to do both, you need both.

The list of Training Endorsements (TEs) is long and not everyone has an approved syllabus for every training endorsement.
Most under transition can do a G3, G2 or G1 (yep they are all separate) as well as Low Level.
What else a particular school has depends on what they have submitted to CASA for approval.

So in the first instance you need to be really specific about what you are looking for based on what you want to do and need.
Once you have answered that, punters on the forum here can offer their input and the schools that may be able to help you out.
BTW if you are able to apply RPL (recognition of prior learning) then you may be able to reduce your hour based on competency so you need to ask.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby tinman » Tue Nov 6 2018, 10:51

At a guess I'd say Chopper is after an Instructor Rating Training Endorsement, as per CASR 61.1235 Item 14 in that table... Don't actually know who can do that... CASA maybe?
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Tue Nov 6 2018, 11:28

That would be a FIR FIR??
So that you can train an instructor how to train another instructor??
Is that what you are asking for?
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hand in pants
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby hand in pants » Tue Nov 6 2018, 20:29

The whole of part 61 is stupidly out of control. Nobody has the same information. Standardisation, not anymore. Complicated, dis-connected, un-intelligent and virtually un-workable rules need to go. Nothing has "improved" since they shoved this rubbish onto us in sept'14, it just get worse every time they try to change it.

It's been over 4 years and it's still not even close to being fixed, never will be. And that's what we get for letting non pilots and academics write the rules.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Tue Nov 6 2018, 20:42

Oc:=
Yep
Btw we can do and test for all fir te that exist in part 61 including fire. (I think)
Just ask but would have to be in a jet ranger
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby tinman » Tue Nov 6 2018, 20:43

That would be a FIR FIR??
So that you can train an instructor how to train another instructor??


Ha ha ha... So that's confusing even for a man of your calibre? Welcome to the new and improved rules :wink: !!

They way I understand it it's a FIR training endorsement so you're allowed to train pilots to become a flight instructor. But that's where it becomes a mess of confusion for me. Who decides what TE a flight instructor is able to obtain? I can't find anything in the MOS, so theoretically (and that's only my interpretation) you should be give that TE automatically if you hold the appropriate rating. For example, if you hold a Grade 2 FIR you automatically hold that G2 training endorsement, and you should then be able to train anyone up to G2 standard.

What's your understanding of it Mike?
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby The Scarlett Harlot » Tue Nov 6 2018, 22:01

tinman wrote:
That would be a FIR FIR??
So that you can train an instructor how to train another instructor??


Ha ha ha... So that's confusing even for a man of your calibre? Welcome to the new and improved rules :wink: !!

They way I understand it it's a FIR training endorsement so you're allowed to train pilots to become a flight instructor. But that's where it becomes a mess of confusion for me. Who decides what TE a flight instructor is able to obtain? I can't find anything in the MOS, so theoretically (and that's only my interpretation) you should be give that TE automatically if you hold the appropriate rating. For example, if you hold a Grade 2 FIR you automatically hold that G2 training endorsement, and you should then be able to train anyone up to G2 standard.

What's your understanding of it Mike?




I’m interested in Mike’s perspective but from an enquiry made around 18 months ago;

Anyone who was a Grade 1 under Car 5 retains the grandfathered privilege of being able to provide instructor training.

Anyone who became a Grade 1 under part 61 must be granted an FIR TE, so that they can train instructors, Grades 3 and 2 cannot provide instructor training. Remember there is no longer any “mutual practice with another candidate” or “practice under the supervision of an existing Grade 2” that used to be the case.

To obtain a FIR TE, I was informed by CASA that a candidate had to simply satisfy an examiner that they demonstrated the appropriate skills to provide such training. As Part 61 is silent in the process and there is no reference under the MOS, the obvious question is “what are the appropriate skills needed”, the answer was “whatever satisfies the examiner”.

Now if that doesn’t leave things open to interpretation and manipulation, I don’t know what does!


But do not forget, these “improvements” came “at no cost to industry”.....
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chopperdavo
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby chopperdavo » Tue Nov 6 2018, 22:12

MOSTLY correct...

Yes if you held a Grade 1 instructor rating pre part transitioned to a G1 training endorsement and were given an FIR TE (along with all the other approvals your previously held).

Post 61 implementation you upgraded from a G2 TE to a G1 TE, you could not provide instroctor training unless you also gained the FIR TE.

An instructor with a G2 TE, can also be given a course of training, and pass the test for the FIR and have that added to a G2 TE.

As mike said there are training endorsements for almost every flight activity there is. If you held these approvals pre 61, and your company has written a syllabus for them all them bOOm your good to go.... If not then it’s a long and expensive process to find someone who can provide the training, then ideally conduct the initial test, because yes it’s a test so you need to find an examiner.

Once you hold the TE fortunately they do require a flight review in order to use....

Confused yet....
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hand in pants
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby hand in pants » Tue Nov 6 2018, 23:10

Still don't understand why we have to be continually retested on the things we do for a living. Are we truly considered that stupid that we forget hoe to do the things we do day in and day out that we need to be checked every two years. A check flight or standardisation flight with the CFI should be more than enough to cover it.
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Eric Hunt
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Eric Hunt » Wed Nov 7 2018, 00:18

Hey HIP, back in the early 90s I met a fellow, let's call him Mark, because there were a LOT of pilots called Mark at the time, who wanted an instructor rating. He went to "A Certain School", paid for the whole course, flew half the hours and covered very little of the theory, and was given a rating by the Big Blonde Boss. When I innocently asked him if he wanted to do some instructing for us, he replied, "Oh no, I don't have a real rating it's just a (name deleted) rating. I don't know a darn thing."

So, a simple CFI "check ride" with a tick in the box for someone who had been a student there, "taught" there and had never been outside that place, meant nothing.

That said, the new CA$A rules are ridiculous, and yes, a CFI check ride SHOULD be enough, once every 2 years, to keep doing what we have been doing since 1976.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Wed Nov 7 2018, 02:16

Lets leave the old world and CAR 5 behind because unfortunately it has gone so lets just talk new world.
But I will start by saying I may not have it completely right yet so forgive me if I am wrong.

Each TE is a standalone so depending on what you need you may not need a G3, G2 or G1 to get the TE of desire and that includes the FIR FIR TE.

So lets say you are a sling guru and all you want to do is teach other pilots under part 61 to do sling loads.
You need a FIR and the LL TE with a sling endorsement (pretty sure that's how it works unless you also need a separate Sling TE but don't have the books in front of me.)
You then want to teach someone how to be an instructor using sling now you also need your FIR TE so you can do that. Still no G1, 2 or 3 required.
Now you are a FIR with a LL and FIR TE
So now you can do the training but you cannot do the test unless you are an FE and have had each FE Endorsement added to your licence. Another set of courses and flight tests to get that.

Now you want to teach someone to fly towards a RPL, PPL or CPL now you need at least a G3 TE added to your FIR.
Great good to go. In theory now you should also be able to train someone else to be a FIR in any of the training endorsements you have because you have the FIR TE and I believe that is the case unless Part 61 specifically says you cannot for a particular TE.

Poor old helicopter guys, unlike our fixed wing cousins who only go forwards and upwards and downwards either under the VFR or under the IFR don't do on a day to day basis the operational variety a helicopter pilot or helicopter instructor is required to do so we now have to have a multitude of TEs and the associated Flight Examiner approvals to go along with it.

In order to get every TE you need to do a course of training BUT we are able to apply RPL so every enquiry now is individualised based on what you have previously done.
This means that as a school we will have to charge you to do the research to tell you what you need based on what you have and what you want and then come up with a training plan/offer. That is assuming we have the appropriate courses approved in our Ops Manual.

No extra cost to industry, its simple, easy to understand and completely workable.

So can a G3 or G2 get and FIR TE - yes. Can someone without a G1, 2 or three get and FIR TE - yes.
As a suggestion and to answer one of the questions above, what we typically suggest is that when you do a G1 you deliver the FIR TE brief as the exercise so that both the G1 and FIR TE are issued at the same time as the competencies in the MOS are identical!!

Man, head hurts thinking about it.
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Rolland » Wed Nov 7 2018, 06:36

In the same boat (i think....lol) looking for a school to do a full time FIR (initial issue) Grade 3 TE (so i can teach towards the issue of RPL,PPL,CPL) prefer to do in H269/300, travel not an issue. Have spoken with Specialist helicopters (no courses on near horizon) and have had zero replies from multiple inquires with PHS in Morrabin. Sorry Mike, would love too, but unfortunately cant invest that much coin to do the 35+ hrs in a 206. Any additional (constructive) recommendations are welcomed. Cheers
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bladepitch
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby bladepitch » Wed Nov 7 2018, 09:29

Mike after reading that i can only thank god im not trying to chase those tickets...

That is frickin ridiculous!

I feel sorry for anyone that has to go through that rubbish..
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Re: Instructor Training Endorsment

Postby Mike Becker » Wed Nov 7 2018, 09:42

Yep, we typically train inhouse our own guys rather than do external but I am surprised no one else has gone and sorted courses on their 141 certificate. Just goes to show how the majority either don't understand the new regs (understandable) or don't know that they have to add a bunch of stuff to what they have been doing in the past. I admit its not fun trying to figure out how to get info into the Ops Manual. Maybe getting easier now they have created some examples but when it was first thrown at us there was nothing.

Our G3 syllabus is 25 hours but because this is your first TE there is an additional 5 hours of FIR common to do first.
First part you should get sorted is the ground work by doing a PMI and the PIRC exam. A fixed wing school can even do that or even do by correspondence unless you already have a Cert IV in training and assessing or a tertiary teaching qual from your past.
Then you need to find a school that does the flying and that would follow pretty much what you used to do for the old G2 but no mutual.
Once you do the test for the G3 you can only teach elements of a RPL, PPL or CPL, you can't teach low level or anything else (even if you have LL rating) until you get those additional TEs on your FIR which would then be classed as an addition to an existing operational rating. Need to do a course of training then the flight test. Of course the FIR doing the training also needs the corresponding TE and the FIR TE. Then you have to find a flight examiner with all of the above as well.

If you want as an exercise here. Post what you have and tell me what you want and I will tell you what you have to do to get what you want. See even saying that is complicated.

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