New (to me) VRS recovery technique

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SpecialGray
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New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby SpecialGray » Sat Sep 19 2015, 02:16

http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/topstories/Flying-Through-the-Vortex_85872.html#.VfzCUbTvLfG

"Rather than forward cyclic and reduce collective (as I have been teaching and evaluating for years), he actually increased the collective to climb power, added the appropriate left pedal to keep the nose straight and applied right cyclic. The combination of tail rotor thrust and right bank moved the aircraft to the right and almost immediately out of the vortex ring. I was amazed. After a little practice, I was making recoveries from a fully developed vortex ring state with only 20 to 30 ft of altitude loss."
Usually 'down here' wishing I was 'up there'
agusta
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby agusta » Sat Sep 19 2015, 02:31

Interesting read, in my training I was taught pretty much the same, leave the collective where it is and get out of the vortex to the side instead of nosing forward.
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Birdy » Sat Sep 19 2015, 08:41

............
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Hello Pilots
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Hello Pilots » Sat Sep 19 2015, 11:53

Best recovery, avoid getting into it in the first place......
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Rotorpilot
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Rotorpilot » Sat Sep 19 2015, 21:11

Hello Pilots wrote:Best recovery, avoid getting into it in the first place......

Well der...... There's always one isn't there. pop; :roll: :roll:
The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
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wheatbix
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby wheatbix » Sun Sep 20 2015, 00:46

Rotorpilot wrote: Well der...... There's always one isn't there. pop; :roll: :roll:


Sounds like you must be a really experienced production longline pilot, keep up the good work! 8)

For the rest of us mere mortals who often flirt with the onset of VRS depending on the type of work we do, it definitely sounds like an interesting and plausible technique. I'll have to give it a try at altitude sometime
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Birdy » Sun Sep 20 2015, 02:17

Was thinkn the same thing weetbix, avoidence is the first option.
But we dont always have the luxury of always flyn steady.
Sumtimes the boot gets sunk in, like horisontal boom quickstops, where a low level VRS can be entered.
The more in your bag of tricks the better.
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Hello Pilots
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Hello Pilots » Sun Sep 20 2015, 05:07

The stated technique is in the latest R22/R44 Flight Training Guide
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helothere
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby helothere » Sun Sep 20 2015, 12:14

So left roll and right pedal for a French one?
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hand in pants
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby hand in pants » Sun Sep 20 2015, 20:41

I got shown that about ten years ago at the Bell Customer Training Academy in Texas by the CFI. I was there doing the "Operational Check Flight" course for the 407. I was the only one on the course so when it was time to do the flying we just played about and did things as they came to mind.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
Gypsykid
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Gypsykid » Sat Sep 17 2016, 15:11

Was chatting to a mate of mine just the other day about this technique. He teaches it and was shown by the guy from robinson. its not so much of getting out of the vortex as using it.
My understanding is your'e strafing sideways into the upward moving air of the vortex.. This works to arrest the high rate of descent and if your get it right you will feel it as you get sat back down in your seat.

Havnt tried it myself yet.
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rotors99
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby rotors99 » Sun Sep 18 2016, 04:00

You got into VRS due to no airspeed & high sink with power on....so applying this Vuichard technique You still ain't got airspeed back???? So Your still set up for VRS entry Oc:= Naaar thanks i will stick to the tried & proved technique of keeping straight, keep power on & poling forward & getting back my airspeed: Works Every-time :'if it ain't broke....don't fix it' pop;
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby godfather007 » Sun Sep 18 2016, 10:05

Very interesting topic and feed back.

I'm sticking to my instincts on this one.

Too many variables and situations the way I see it.

Power available
Height available
Wind available
MAUW
Heading at the time.. $hit shal I go on.

From experience I have been silly enough to get myself in this situation more than one time in more than a few types.
In each time I was able to somehow get out alive with either luck or initiative from training.FN..
I'm not an instructor or a genius at flying nor over educated in the science behind it.
So find something that works for you in the different situations that we find our self in and make sure we don't become part of a statistic for others to talk and read about.
Flying Helicopters is an awesome luxury,
and a great rush for the minimal $ we get paid.
Do your best to keep out of VRS/LTE and plenty of other Fu<k ups to stayLive!
Mechanical failures our out of our controll.
GF over and out.
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rotors99
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby rotors99 » Mon Sep 19 2016, 07:32

OK I give up............I have been unintentionally in full blown IVRS thrice & twice approaching close too :shock:

2 unintentional IVRS's were a result of flying very slow, airspeed around 10-20knots, overflew a ridge line with massive updrafts on the other side which effectively was the same as having a massive rate of descent, power on, bugger all speed......................& Weeeeeee down we went like a greased Anvil Oc:= violent shake rattle & roll :arrow: Camera-Man was screaming his lungs out, rapidly filling up his undies; I poled forward & we were out of it like that - snap pop; (in the Himalayas above 15,000')

the other VRS was in a confined dead end (horseshoe valley) were funneling effect from 3 separate gully's coming together, all blowing 30+knots bringing the 3 wind's together had nowhere to go but up & when I overflew that updraft zone - bingo, instant VRS; I almost filled my undies it happened so fast & violently, but instinctively I pole forward & remarkably problem was solved with the tried & proven method :P (14,400')

the other 2 was slinging; my fault; coming in too hot, too steep, too cocky, no speed on & Wooooooooh got the vibration, loosing control; I only had iron sheets hanging below & I punched off, probably to soon than going first for speed but it worked, second time I poled forward & full VRS was avoided pop;

Moral of the story: certainly our flying set up can cause You to develop VRS & eventually IVRS; being aware of airspeed, wind & ROD is the key to avoiding..........environmental conditions in the Mountains especially on high wind days can also put you into VRS & IVRS so be careful & be ready :?:

Remember You get into VRS due to a lack of airspeed, so the BEST (tried & proven) recovery is get the airspeed back (pole forward) :cool_dc:
arrrj
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby arrrj » Mon Sep 19 2016, 08:01

Rotors99,

I fully agree.

I got into VRS once in a dead end valley (as you did). What got me out of the sh*t was some very good training (thanks guys) that had stuck in my mind...firmly.

My experience happened so quickly, but of course I processed it in slow motion, probably 2-3 seconds between onset, recognition (1,500 feet per minute down on the dial ! Can so clearly remember that !) and fix it. I was very close to the tree height, coming in to land, if I hadn't reacted quickly, we would be removing branches from the cabin. I am not sure how you can react THAT quickly with something complex as above ?

I was taught collective down, fly forward...but I think the latter is the fix.

Cheers,
Arrrj

PS _ I hope the Kings are doing well...
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rotors99
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby rotors99 » Tue Sep 20 2016, 07:16

Hoy Capt. Arrrj..............I agree Mate, it's getting the airspeed back is what's gonna save Your furry green arzz :o

By the way....I did an 1 hour training session yesterday in the 130, tried the Voichard technique.....hmmm yes it worked in mild early onset of VRS, not that well, I doubt it would work in full blown IVRS!!! However though the technique worked on mild VRS......BUT; I was still sinking like a greased Anvil, still had no airspeed & had power applied so I was perfectly set up for reentry back into VRS :shock: which is exactly what happened, straight back into VRS :x (Stupid is what; stupid does)

Oc:= Thes Vulchar, Volchard, Volcan, Vomit...what ever technique is for fools that think it's the next Savior for IVRS......'if it ain't broke; don't fix it' - stick to tried & proven methods; poling forward into clean air & regaining airspeed is what is gonna save You - EVERY-TIME )c/


Happy Happy pop;
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Jabberwocky
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Jabberwocky » Tue Sep 20 2016, 08:46

I've read a bit on this over the last year or so 'since it came in to fruition'. What I don't understand is that the rotor system doesn't care or know which way it's travelling so why does sideways achieve more than forward?
I understand tail rotor thrust is meant to help, and you're putting more pedal in to strafe te machine sideways, but I've read that the tail rotor only uses ~5% of MGB output. That's not a huge amount of thrust, granted it's is more than zero. But enough to make so much of a difference??
The Scarlett Harlot
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby The Scarlett Harlot » Tue Sep 20 2016, 09:50

Steve,

Try it again, but instead of just keeping your existing power level, as you're in the 130, try;

Pop it into vortex ring, let it start to sink and then;

A) left cyclic
B) at the same time or shortly thereafter (a second or so) apply power to limit (FLI). If you had enough power to hover you'll have the ability to climb.
C) then go for speed and set up again, or whatever you were doing.

It sounds to me like you weren't applying enough power to move away. The idea (as i was taught) is to recover and fly away, have a think about it and try again, rather than set up again straight away.

It's the power that is the part that gives you the recovery without (as much) altitude loss. The pedal keeps your heading. I really don't think the idea of TR thrust pushing you out of the vortex is valid.

In theory you should be able to use this technique to recover in any direction, but it's easier to manage the inputs sideways. I suspect that's because the visuals are easier to identify, rather than any aerodynamic reason.

I don't see it as a panacea, simply another option in the tool kit. There will be occasions where the traditional technique is better, others where the Vuichard will be the ideal.

Just like LTE, recognising that you could get it and having a plan are key.
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby Ecosse » Tue Sep 20 2016, 10:09

I am with Rotors99 on this.

I have tried the technique a number of times during the onset and it does move you out of the flow but also find you then need to fly away to totally sort out the situation.

Rotors99 did not have sufficient power in the 130 to climb and had the FLI very near the line - 9000' PA and only 1300 AGL with a very healthy rate of descent to test the technique. Video footage review shows correct technique of right pedal, left cyclic and a significant power increase. After the sideways move and some additional control the only option was to fly away to totally get things back in shape. 8)
The Scarlett Harlot
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Re: New (to me) VRS recovery technique

Postby The Scarlett Harlot » Tue Sep 20 2016, 10:40

Ecosse,

Thanks for sharing. At 9000, there's not much margin for anything. If you've found it doesn't help much up there, more power to you. (And the rest of us!)

As always, have a plan. I've found that the sideways move makes a bigger difference closer to the entry, rather than developing further before going for it. If anybody has different experience, I'd love to hear about it.

It's a tool available for everyone and understanding when to use it - or not - is part of the art of what we do. :cool_dc:

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