Drone Commander Thread for Droners

UAV's, drivers, builders and the regulations.
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SuperSix1
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby SuperSix1 » Sat May 30 2015, 09:11

GreenRange,

just to confirm Capt Hollywood's answer, as soon as you use a UAV for anything other than hobby or sport (the uav is the sport), it is considered a commercial operation. Whether there are loopholes in the wider CASA legislation concerning manned operations is irrelevant. CASR 101 exists to the exclusion of all other legislation. This means that for UAV ops, only CASR 101 exists. I've seen plenty try to find an interpretation centred on not making any financial gain, but that doesn't comply. Unless the UAV was being used solely for hobby or sport, it is a commercial UAV activity.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby Evil Twin » Sat May 30 2015, 11:30

Is it time for droneslappers.com??
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby GreenRange » Sat May 30 2015, 11:31

Now we're on to it people!

Decent discussion re. UAVs!

Juzz,

Excellent points about the larger sized UAVs however when considering Sikorskys Matrix Technology research I think "pilot" will have to be loosely defined. They are concentrating on the outcome and having a Mission Director with a tablet programming what they want achieved, then the system decides how to achieve it and flys the mission. The Mission Director with his Ipad can be in the back of the machine (a UH-60!) or on the ground.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby GreenRange » Sat May 30 2015, 12:06

SuperSix1,

Your view on the commercial viability of the R-Max in Australia is interesting. Looks like I will be doing some of my own market research to see how niche the demand is.

And I see your good point about CASR 101 being stand alone legislation. TBH my question was in regard to a particular opportunity offered to me but more for clarification about needing an OC than trying to find a loophole.

I may be wrong but I doubt VicPol would be comfortable long term operating via loophole.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby Juzz » Sat May 30 2015, 12:21

GreenRange, that is pretty cool, haven't seen that yet. Maybe they should just skip the tablet and make it voice operated... He could sit in the back and when he is ready to land, says "Blackhawk Down!"
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby GreenRange » Sat May 30 2015, 12:27

Juzz,

Lol!
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby GreenRange » Sat May 30 2015, 12:32

Aaaaaand I totally missed the movie reference there until too late!
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby flyboy111111 » Sat May 30 2015, 15:49

Evil Twin wrote:Is it time for droneslappers.com??

I believe so, maybe Bladeslapper is not looking at its fundamental self and instead looking at what a good mate is up do peddling his worthy and informative and commercial based information.
They did break of for Wingslapper, yet won't differentiate between a "helicopter" and a " Remote Controlled" aircraft, call it what you will Captain Hollywood , support your mate and his business to the hilt, pull up videos and pictures and videos of "drones".... But face the fact, they are still drones.
Drones might "slap blades" but the still dosnt make them helicopters .
I don't doubt for a second that drones are a part of the future, I only ask for them to be separated from Bladeslapper.

Start up Droneslapper
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby SuperSix1 » Sat May 30 2015, 20:03

Believe me GreenRange there are plenty of legit organisations out there using UAVs for purposes other than hobby or sport because common-sense would seem to indicate that their use is ok...

Even CASA are confused. Last Nov the CASA Flight Safety magazine had an article on how a farmer could use a UAV on their own farm for agricultural purposes with no certification. I applaud this, but I can't see how it complies with CASR 101. As a result, CASA have gone cold on the subject...

And I'd suggest many universities are accidentally non-compliant. How do you convince an honors student that their research into using drones for surf life-saving or similar needs them to first get certified by CASA...

In terms of UAV assisted policing, I have trained officers from the Feds, SA Pol and NSW. As a result I am confident that folks in blue understand both the potential of UAVs in policing and also the need to become Certified.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby SuperSix1 » Sat May 30 2015, 20:20

Tip for the day..
helicopter (ˈhɛlɪˌkɒptə Pronunciation for helicopter )

Definitions
noun

an aircraft capable of hover, vertical flight, and horizontal flight in any direction. Most get all of their lift and propulsion from the rotation of overhead blades ...

So apparently a multi-rotor UAV is a helicopter, so does helicopter aerodynamics count? Sure does, everything, from ground effect to power curve, retreating blade stall and torque effects... and watch out for vortex ring, some multi-rotors such as the DJI Inspire 1 seem particularly susceptible... approach into wind..
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby flighttech » Sat May 30 2015, 21:22

Supersix1

I think what we have found is our brothers are as keen to distance themselves from us helicopter pilots who also fly drones as they are to put themselves on a mantle piece and wear a daft shirt that says im a tea pilot all others bow down. I rekon ET is right and perhaps droneslapper is a good idea.

Shame really as I was keen to sponsor this site with our RPAS school in NZ that you john and I are working on. Guess not welcome eh.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby flighttech » Sat May 30 2015, 21:25

As for the RMAX. I was hands on last week. Japan doesn't want any cameras added or Trimbles etc so it's going to make spraying very difficult. It's booms are only about a foot long so doesn't cover much ground. It's a 20 year old design and needs to work to compete with other more modern designs. But it's a start and sorry folks it's a helicopter.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby Zebt » Sat May 30 2015, 23:18

flyboy111111 wrote:
Evil Twin wrote:Is it time for droneslappers.com??

I believe so, maybe Bladeslapper is not looking at its fundamental self and instead looking at what a good mate is up do peddling his worthy and informative and commercial based information.
They did break of for Wingslapper, yet won't differentiate between a "helicopter" and a " Remote Controlled" aircraft, call it what you will Captain Hollywood , support your mate and his business to the hilt, pull up videos and pictures and videos of "drones".... But face the fact, they are still drones.
Drones might "slap blades" but the still dosnt make them helicopters .
I don't doubt for a second that drones are a part of the future, I only ask for them to be separated from Bladeslapper.

Start up Droneslapper



I believe this is a valid point, mainly due to the fact it is has a very large scope for discussion and the industry is relatively in it's infancy considering the ease of availability of machines. I suggest that if the posts start to become too frequent ie. irritating/irrelevant for the majority then a vote should be taken whether or not to encourage UAV discussions (unless directly related to manned flight) to be posted elsewhere, ie rcgroups or droneslapper if someone wants to create it. However there is the train of thought that not allowing posts just because of subject matter goes against the idea of a forum.
Mods?
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby Jabberwocky » Sat May 30 2015, 23:25

Just make a new sub section on here I reckon. No need for a totally new site.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby Capt Hollywood » Sat May 30 2015, 23:55

They did break of for Wingslapper, yet won't differentiate between a "helicopter" and a " Remote Controlled" aircraft, call it what you will Captain Hollywood , support your mate and his business to the hilt, pull up videos and pictures and videos of "drones".... But face the fact, they are still drones.


Mate, I met SuperSix1 for the first time last Sunday when I did his course. I know very little about his business outside of the course he was teaching which I found to be informative and value for money considering we were able to fly some pretty expensive equipment. I don't own a drone but the company I work for does and we will be conducting UAV Ops in the near future, hence my need for the course. I am an example of someone who now likes to keep abreast of both topics (Heli's and UAV's) and would prefer to be able to do this on one site where there is some crossover in the fields.

As I said before, if people don't like the topic, don't click on it. BS is for helicopters pilots and all that they might be interested in isn't it? There's a Recipe section on BS for crying out loud!

CH 8)
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby GreenRange » Sun May 31 2015, 04:03

SuperSix1,

SuperSix1 wrote:Even CASA are confused. Last Nov the CASA Flight Safety magazine had an article on how a farmer could use a UAV on their own farm for agricultural purposes with no certification. I applaud this, but I can't see how it complies with CASR 101. As a result, CASA have gone cold on the subject...


It is examples like this that made me question the requirement for an Operators Certificate as that is the harder(more expensive) to get and not a RPAS/Controller Certificate even if relevant. I do see now I shouldn't have bothered drawing equivalencies with heli. ops.

SuperSix1 wrote:In terms of UAV assisted policing, I have trained officers from the Feds, SA Pol and NSW. As a result I am confident that folks in blue understand both the potential of UAVs in policing and also the need to become Certified.


Thinking about it now, my last statement in that post was made with a hint of sarcasm and probably should have ended "area of confusion" rather than "loophole".

I do agree however there are many who work closely with those dressed in blue that aren't themselves and it was a person in this role, Victoria Public Service, that contacted me. He had some knowledge on the subject but was confused with the difference between, and ease of obtaining, a Controllers Certificate and an Operators Certificate among other things.

flighttech,

flighttech wrote:Japan doesn't want any cameras added or Trimbles etc so it's going to make spraying very difficult.It's booms are only about a foot long so doesn't cover much ground. It's a 20 year old design and needs to work to compete with other more modern designs. But it's a start and sorry folks it's a helicopter.


I totally agree about the age of design and spray coverage. Interesting about the cameras. Is their view for operations in Japan only or worldwide? Their sales spiel suggests otherwise and I believe they were used to inspect Fukushima by/on behalf of the Japanese government. I posted a picture earlier of 3 RMax in a line which looked to definitely have imaging hardware attached.
Or do you mean for BVLOS ops?
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sun May 31 2015, 06:03

Personally, I don't see a need for a separate site for the discussions relating to drones. If anything, I feel that the current thread pertaining to their usage, certification, pros/cons et cetera is somewhat complimentary to our broader rotary wing industry.

Quite simply, if one does not find the topic of drones of any interest or relevance there are numerous other threads to peruse and participate in.

With the exception of some recent behaviour that was not exactly appropriate or professional, the few drone specific threads have provided an otherwise informative exchange in an area we all need to be cognisant of. We don't all need to like drones but some knowledge thereof can only be of benefit in the big scheme of things.

Happy slapping (or droning)
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby godfather007 » Sun May 31 2015, 07:27

G'Day Super Six One.

I must say you have shown to be a very patient man, given all the replies and time spared keeping up on the threads.

As you know, i have had a say, as crazy as some of it may have been.. :shock:

The curiosity has got the better of me and i have to ask, "What is the going day rate and expected wage for a UAV controller?"

The risk as a UAV controller is considerably less on ones life compared to an actual pilot risking their life being up there, i would only suspect the rate to be lower for the UAV dude. (I have been proven wrong plenty of times in the past.)

And In my eyes, as more UAV operators appear, the industry will get flooded and UAV company's will become more cut throat when competing for clients. This in return will lead to cost cutting to score the work. Who will be the looser? the company's bottom line or the UAV controller's wallet? I'm thinking the UAV controller.

I believe this is a valid thought and question, as it has been the case for many years in the aviation industry.

As usual i'm not in for a debate, so forgive me in advance if i don't reply to banter.

Cheers,

GF.
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby flighttech » Sun May 31 2015, 07:57

I have made more money as a drone pilot than I ever have as a helicopter pilot :)
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Re: Drone Commander Thread for Droners

Postby SuperSix1 » Sun May 31 2015, 10:22

Good question GodFather...

I too make far more from operational drone work than any helicopter job would ever pay me.... particularly community based EMS :D

But I have spent some years building up to that point. At first everyone thinks resi realestate. Hard yards unless you already have an established realty photography business. Agents are special, and actually getting the cash out of them ... well...

You need to specialise, and get good at doing things with your UAV that save the client money/time/risk. With good info farmers can use fewer chemicals, you are saving them real dollars so you can charge as a professional. The acft used like the 3DR Aero M are not for amateurs, they would soon go broke crashing all the time, and looking foolish in front of the client. Wind turbine inspections for a site cost 14k a day for the crane (think of all that top of hill moving and stabilising) so a good UAV operator with the right acft and optics can charge $6k, save the client a whole bunch of time and money and both feel like winners.

All my pricing is there for all to see on my javelinsupport.com website. Some think it is too cheap, some too expensive, but the work I get tells me it is set about right. On the courses I say that after business establishment, an optics operator should be aiming for $1k a day and geospatial $3k a day. If you are just going to throw a Phantom in the air for 10 minutes, you certainly are going to be in a flooded market at some point. But if you have professional grade acft and optics, you may well have $15k in the air so you charge for the product, the expense of getting it there and the risk. It takes years and dedication to be able to safely operate the heavier UAVs, but their payloads are in demand. The hordes some suggest would hit a wall here... first time you use your $4k camera and $3k gimbal as a one-use-only set of landing gear, kind of forces people to face reality about their skills, finances and dedication to running a drone business.

My advice is don't think you are ready for commercial ops until you have trained and practiced to the point where you absolutely know you will get the job done and get your acft back safely. It takes time, at first you don't know what you don't know. That is the emphasis of my courses, knowing the key issues and what questions to ask.

The industry will achieve a balance point at all levels somewhere in the future, but my view is that the industry is expanding much faster than there are competent operators to do all the work. Here is the rub. If you know your stuff, look professional, get what the client wants and don't expend your profit margin crashing or mis-managing you gear, you will make good money. If you don't know your stuff and can't really fly and operate your UAVs, you will have too many multi-thousand dollar crashes, clients won't want you back and you'll end up spending your off-roster time surfing again.

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