Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

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Kenny Powers
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Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Fri Nov 14 2014, 13:28

Hi all,

Come June 2015 when CAR 31 Schedules of Experience are phased out, the only options to gain an aircraft or engine type rating will be Part 66 PCT, POC and/or OJT.

This EASA based system seems to be designed for the airline industry, and once again the helicopter industry has to suffer for it.

CASA's attitude towards how B1.3 LAMEs will obtain Type Ratings in the future is extremely poor, with one CASA AWI telling me over the phone that it is the helo industry that needs to step up to the plate, as these are the rules, so too bad.

There is an absolute lack of PCT/POC training for helicopters within Australia, just take a look at AC 147-2. There is also a lack of Part 147 MTOs who can (or are interested in) developing/certifying/assessing OJT books.


Standard Aero in Sydney were the only approved type course for the RR250 engine in Australia. They will no longer be teaching 250 type courses, and I was advised that if I want the type training for that engine, I would have to go to the States.

One of the reasons they stated for no longer running the course was that they were not interested in developing or administering the OJT books on behalf of CASA.

I also had the same response from Sikorsky Helitech when I enquired about whether they would run OJT books for the T-53. If they are not interested in developing OJT books, who will an engineer go to in Australia to gain type ratings for T53, PT6, 212, 412 etc. in the future?

Helitech advised me that they are the only ones in the Southern hemisphere that run a T-53 type course. They mentioned that if they decide not to run the course anymore, I'd have to go to Canada for a type course.

There are plenty of aircraft in Australia fitted with the RR250 or T-53. How will future LAMEs gain the ratings to maintain these engine types?


Bristow Defence are Part 147, and run Puma Airframe/Engine PCT and OJT, but there doesn't seem to be any thing else out there. Especially for small/non type-rated engines.


Unfortunately, as I'm currently in the throes of knocking over the last of my B1.3 theory, I'm not in a position to get SOE completed before the transitional rules are phased out, so my question is:

How does an engineer gain Part 66 PCT or OJT in Australia post June 2015?

I'm interested in picking up either RR250 or T-53 as an initial engine type rating.


You might suggest I go to the Bell Academy in the States, and do their courses. But how would the OJT work?

If anyone has any advice, please feel free to PM me.



CASA are stiffeling the industry with their over-regulation, which in my view is not achieving any additional safety benefit.

Their desire to align their rules/system with EASA is a dismal failure. The proof is in the very simple fact that EASA won't recognise a CASA AME Licence.


Thanks for listening/reading.

Kenny
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby choppermech1986 » Fri Nov 14 2014, 16:18

A very pertinent question Kenny. I'd love to know the outcome as well. Like most things regarding LAME's, it's going to be industry driven. In a years time when operators have no idea how to get apprentices licensed, then there will be a whole lot of jumping up and down and some answers will start trickling down.

Does anybody have any good information, links or documents regarding the new system?
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Sat Nov 15 2014, 01:57

Maybe something the AHIA could look into?
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby CYHeli » Sun Nov 16 2014, 22:28

There aren't any LAME's on the board, or at call, so we might have to look at that. Rob is aware of your issues, but is busy putting together Avalon stuff at the moment.

The C208 uses a RR250 doesn't it? If so, are there OJT opportunities within the aeroplane industry for those engines?
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby ChicoCheco » Mon Nov 17 2014, 02:56

CY, more like Honeywell TPE331 or PT6A on C208.
Soloy C206, Nomad or GA10 should have 250, but lot more common in rotorcraft, obviously.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby choppermech1986 » Mon Nov 17 2014, 03:29

CY, Some Cessna 206's use RR250's but 208's use mostly PT6's and the occasional one runs a TPE331.

I don't believe that CASA recognise a B1.1 engine type rating (eg. Rolls Royce C20B) if you have the same engine (albeit without a RGB bolted to the front) in a B1.3 aircraft. I hope someone can prove me wrong on this. Is there any benefit in having my PT6A license when I apply for my PT6T license? As I understand it, it wouldn't matter whether I had a turbofan (say Trent 900 off an A380) endorsement or a PT6A endorsement, I'm still only eligible for a 25% reduction. If this truly is the case, it's pretty obvious that common sense isn't prevailing at the moment.

It would be really nice to see CASA actually try and help get some talented youngsters licensed instead of using the new system as an excuse to not be able to get them licensed.

Edit: Chico beat me to it.

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting that I'm either talented or young.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby CYHeli » Mon Nov 17 2014, 03:49

it's pretty obvious that common sense isn't prevailing at the moment.


And that about sums it all up.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Mon Nov 17 2014, 07:39

I believe that if you are rated on an engine type that is fitted to an aeroplane, you have to do a minimum of a 'differences' type course to get the helicopter engine rating.

Also, to be rated on an an aeroplane engine type in the first place, you need to hold the applicable licence category first, which in this instance would be B1.1

So I would have to get a B1.1 licence, do the type course for the aeroplane engine type rating, then do the PCT/OJT, get the rating, then do the differences course + OJT etc for the helicopter engine type rating.

No shortcuts there I'm afraid. Just excessive amounts of more time and money. It's not exactly easy to get even the basic B1 category licence either, as I'm finding out.

I have plenty of issues with the licensing system, but I'll stick to talking about PCT/POC/OJT etc on this forum.

Choppermech is right when he says future apprentices/LAMEs will be fighting an uphill battle as CASA regulates helicopters out of existence.

I believe he's also right when he says that nothing will really happen about the way things are going until operators start finding they can't find type rated LAMEs.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Thu Apr 23 2015, 04:05

Any engineers out there know what's going to happen when SOE is no longer an option post June 2015?

Lots of focus on Part 61 at the moment, and rightly so. However, no one gets to fly if there aren't any type rated engineers around.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Fausty » Thu Apr 23 2015, 07:32

Hi Kenny,
As I understand it your SOE will not be accepted by CASA after June 2015, however if you speak to a Part 147 organisation that can assess you for adequate experience for a B 1.3, they will probably look at what you have logged in the SOE, as well as how recent the experience is. Hopefully they will be smart enough to accept it in lieu of the required ' PCT/OJT journal' . Not all 147 organisations can assess you, I believe Aviation Australia and ATS at Nowra (Ken Mitchell) can assess for B1.3 (IT WILL COST YOU). I suggest you speak to them about your situation and see if they will accept your SOE. Good luck.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Thu Apr 23 2015, 09:27

Thanks for your reply Fausty.

While I certainly am having (more than) my fair share of issues going through the assessment process for the initial issue of a B1.3 subcategory licence (and yes it has cost me), what I'm referring to is type ratings.

Perhaps my previous post could have been more clear; I am talking about the same issues that I raised in my initial post from November last year. That is that SOE for type ratings will no longer be accepted post June 2015, and currently no one offers Part 66 PCT/POC/OJT logbooks for helicopter airframe or engine type ratings, apart from Bristow Defence for the Pumas (refer AC147-2).

Sure, you could pay lots of money to go overseas and do a type course, but how are you supposed to document your practical on-type experience in an approved manner if SOE is no longer an option, and no one has designed or is administering CASA approved OJT logbooks, or running CASA approved PCT/POC?

If any engineers out there know what's going to happen after SOE is dropped, or if the SOE option will be extended, I'd sure like to know.


By the way, Aviation Australia are not interested in running PCT/POC/OJT for helicopter type ratings (despite having T-53s and Allison 250s), and I'd actively discourage anyone from going through ATS.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Fausty » Thu Apr 23 2015, 12:06

Kenny,

My apologies for not getting where you were driving the post. What is suppose to happen for the replacement of the SOE is an "experience journal" supplied by the 147 organisation. The 147 organisation is suppose to put together what experience they feel it necessary for you to gain on type, this should be coupled with the PCT/POC or OJT. When you have met the requirements as listed by the 147 they supply CASA with a form (I think it is a form 465) certifying that you are eligible for CASA to grant the endorsement. I attended quite a few of the training meetings prior to the introduction to the Part 66 licence and queried CASA again and again over the concern there would be very few training organisations in Australia that would provide all the training requirements (theory and practical) and their desire to get rid of the SOE, it fell on deaf ears. I could not seem to get them to accept the SOE is in effect an "experience journal". Also have you look at AC66-7?
I don't know if CASA is going to extend the use of the SOE for the Part 66 SAL (Small aircraft licence) given they have extended the basics to June 2019 for this new licence, I have tried unsuccessfully to talk to CASA regarding the proposed legislation, it might be worth your while to try and speak with someone in AME licencing in Canberra re the SOE and express your concerns. You might have some success. Positive thought, positive thought, positive thought...
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby spd » Thu Apr 23 2015, 20:39

From CASA Website

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?W ... =PC_100496

"However, if you are currently using CASA Basics and SOE for what would have been a small aircraft licence under the CAR 31 licence system, you can continue to use the CASA Basics and SOE pathway until June 2019 to qualify for a small aircraft licence outcome. "

Providing the Licence you're after falls under the small aircraft licence category, you're good for another 4 years....
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Thu Apr 23 2015, 22:32

As mentioned in my initial post I did speak with CASA regarding my concerns. I was told that CASA make the rules, and it's up to industry to deal with it.

As far as I can tell, the B1.3 is not a Small Aircraft Licence, and therefore the 4 year SOE extension does not apply to it.

I understand how the Part 66 system is supposed to work regarding PCT/POC/OJT; the problem is that no one is offering it for helicopters.

Thanks for the replies, I'm relieved to see that I'm not the only one with concerns.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Robinsondog » Thu Apr 23 2015, 23:22

i see elsewhere there is to be a meeting between casa and AHIA, i think mostly to do with flying stuff. may I suggest a few of you put together a sort of non detailed heads up preamble to open the way for a more detailed meetings later, to get the concerns on the table. kenny powers i will send over a pm.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby AHIA » Fri Apr 24 2015, 01:03

Robinsondog,

Yes, good question! Our meeting is operational in the early discussions. But will change as we all get a handle on the priorities.
Please read Stephen Creedy's extensive article in The Australian - Aviation - 24 Apr '15. We can email you the text if your can't afford $2.50.
See below.

The other day I called by Aviation Australia to see how LAME training and other related matters were going. The guys there gave me a good oversight which I will publish soon for our members.

But ...... our Quarterly Report trigged a tsunami of complaints from the aeroplane industry; in particular, those who are struggling to be LAMEs, etc.

The regulatory changes are causing confusion; especially with those who are training technicians and those having problems as students.

Why is the AHIA concerned? Industry rumours suggest the average age of maintenance a technician is late fifties. The age when a cold beer is more attractive than a nude pole dancer with nymphomaniac tendencies?

The AHIA is collecting concerns and placing them onto a data base. Tell us your concerns and we will pass them on: secretary@austhia.com

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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Fri Apr 24 2015, 01:28

AHIA,

I think my concerns were laid out in my initial post. I hope you will add them to your database. If I emailed you/the secretary, I'd only be repeating my self.

I do hope that Aviation Australia are not the only Part 147 MTO you are consulting. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, but it might be a good idea to get a balanced view.

The proposed Small Aircraft License seems pointless as the B1 subcategories cover the privileges that are being proposed for the SAL. Also, I don't think I'd be wanting to go flying in an aircraft that's been signed off by someone who only has 2 years of experience, inclusive of training. That's about half the time it takes to complete a Cert IV apprenticeship.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby Kenny Powers » Thu Aug 20 2015, 05:34

Hi all,

Recently I received a reply from a CASA AWI in Canberra, in regards to some questions I had about Part 66 licensing. Interestingly some of it seems to go against what has been publicly released, especially regarding the Small Aircraft Licence. I have posted some of the email below so that other engineers out there can see the same information I am being given. The AWI's answers are shown in yellow.


"Now that Schedules of Experience have been phased out, and the only options to gain an aircraft or engine type rating is Part 66 PCT and/or OJT, how does one document their experience when there are currently no Part 147 organisations offering CASA approved PCT/OJT for helicopters or helicopter engines? How does one obtain an OJT book for a helicopter airframe/engine type rating when there aren’t any MTO’s delivering/administering them?"

SOE has not been phased out. New transitional arrangements have been introduced under CASA Instrument 1/2015 (until the reg changes have been approved by parliament) to enable CASA Basics and SOE to be used to gain a Part 66 licence until October 2019. The Small Aircraft Licence has not been introduced, rather aircraft system group ratings are being introduced to accommodate General Aviation requests (due to be introduced in July 2016), similar to the old “lower groups”. Instrument 1/2015 enables SOE to be used for lower groups at present plus exclusion removal from already held type ratings.

So if SOE is only available for lower groups, what does one use for larger aircraft?


"The only helicopter PCT/OJT that appears available in AC 147-2 is for Pumas at Bristow Defence, in Oakey. I do not intend to obtain a Small Aircraft Licence, only a full unrestricted B1.3 licence. Obviously this limits me on the use of SOE."

Helicopter theory and practical (POC or PCT) is currently covered for most type ratings in AC147-2 (not sure what you are seeking to obtain) however as you indicated there is currently no CASA approved OJT available for helicopters. In order for OJT to become available either a Part 147 or a Part 145 (if their exposition allows) will need to seek CASA approval of an OJT program (you will need to contact a Part 147 and or discuss with the AMO).


I must be missing something as I cannot see how POC/PCT is covered for helicopters in AC147-2. Maybe someone out there smarter than me can fill me in. If 'practical' is listed in the 'credit' column for a given course (aircraft rating), does that infer that it counts towards PCT? Some of the fixed wing courses explicitly mention PCT in the 'course' column and 'practical' in the 'credit' column, while others only show 'practical' in the 'credit' column.


"On that note, can you now use SOE (post June 2015) towards small/non-rated aircraft engine type ratings (e.g. Lycoming T53, RR250, Arriel etc.) if you hold a B1.3 licence, NOT a Small Aircraft Licence?"

Yes, currently you can use SOE toward a “small/non-rated aircraft (engine rating)” type on a Part 66 licence. As discussed above the SAL does not exist.


SOE is not used in lieu of OJT. They meet different requirements. The SOE indicates industry experience however the intent of the CASA approved OJT is to ensure competency in undertaking certain prescribed tasks.


Hopefully this info helps others out there. My next question is why has the MSA pulled the B1.2 and 1.4 from the latest Diploma of Aeroskills package if the Small Aircraft Licence will not exist, and therefore a Cert IV in Mechatronics won't be required for a B1.2 or 1.4?

My head hurts.
Last edited by Kenny Powers on Thu Aug 20 2015, 06:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Part 66 B1.3 PCT/POC/OJT

Postby choppermech1986 » Thu Aug 20 2015, 06:17

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it! Best of luck with the B1.3.

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