casa ..aoc scenic flights

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CYHeli
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby CYHeli » Wed Oct 3 2012, 10:36

Or as someone once said to me, you never own a Robinson, you only lease it and have to renew the lease every 12 years or 2200 hours!
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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cassidy_copter
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby cassidy_copter » Wed Oct 3 2012, 11:15

essie wrote:
If they had borrowed money in order to get the AOC in the first place, they would be at a disadvanage against new operators without an AOC


Well considering the competition between Qantas and Ansett and now Qantas/Jetstar versus VirginAustralia, plus Tiger Airways in the fray . . . There have been and will be winners and losers. Those robust and tenacious enough to survive and those whom scrimp on pay, aircraft maintenance, and everything else and still cannot make it. That is business. Just because one operator has higher operating costs or is inefficient, should CASA cave in to pressure from the status quo and exclude all others or minimise the competition? If you cannot afford to be in business, maybe you shouldn't be.
Never take "No" for an answer.
hydraulicfailure
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby hydraulicfailure » Wed Oct 3 2012, 14:20

Been reading this. You all miss the point. It's all about 1. Brand and 2. Safety.
Lets start with 2. The requirements of an aoc, chief pilot and subsequent responsibilities is a competitive advantage. I'm not concerned that someone can start up without an aoc And do some joy flights - folk will see it for what it is. Just that. Fly with us and enjoy the comfort of knowing that we operate under an aoc..... You know the speel - customers will get that
Back to 1. Your brand should see u though it. People will trust you And return.
I think the greatest hurt in this industry is how young pilots are treated. Our company for one is starting a cadet program to get em going. We just had our first cadet head north after 80 hours of supervision to run a base. Perhaps if we all supported the new recruits better then this wouldn't be needed.

In any event an aoc provides welcome scrutiny, behavioural requirements and pilot confidence and Safety principles. As a cp I actually like it and I reckon our company is better off with it.
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cassidy_copter
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby cassidy_copter » Thu Oct 4 2012, 04:03

hydraulic failure wrote:
It's all about 1. Brand and 2. Safety. . . . Fly with us and enjoy the comfort of knowing that we operate under an aoc.


Sipping the Koolaid a wee bit. Merely scare-mongering. No basis in fact or reality.

I think the greatest hurt in this industry is how young pilots are treated. . . . Perhaps if we all supported the new recruits better then this wouldn't be needed.


I agree with this statement . . . but, it does not apply to young pilots, only. I met a well experienced, older pilot in QLD, down on his luck, sleeping in his car. Seems nobody will give him a chance. He is a helluva nice guy. We need to set our learned prejudices and personality differences aside. If you base a personality assessment or a hiring decision, based on what one writes on a public forum . . . then you're a jackass, in my opinion.

Though a little off topic, but related to the aforementioned, when I was an Instrument Check Airman, the Chief Pilot directed me to fail a pilot. I gave him a bit of extra training and passed him. Not only was he a heck of a nice guy, he was a combat vet and a skilled pilot. On another occasion, when I was a Chief Pilot, I was directed to terminate a pilot. I deemed there was no need to terminate his employment, based solely on a personality conflict, because we were under strength and the pilot was well qualified, highly skilled, and I thought he was a nice guy. Like me, he spoke his mind, directly.

The only thing that keeps any operation safe is the conscience and professionalism of pilots, mechanics, and other personnel involved with Aviation. "Commercial realities" must take a back seat to these. From my experience, an A.O.C. or a recognisable brand or logo on the side of an aircraft guarantees nothing. The only purpose any brand or logo serves is for immediate iconic recognition and marketing. If I am full of it, next time you go shopping, will you reach for a brand-named item or some clean skin, generic or Select store brand, though it may actually be better quality? If I am full of it, then what is SEO all about, when designing a website, if you do not want it to be at the top of Google?

Though a CASA registered sightseeing operator lacks an AOC, it does not necessarily mean that he will be any less compliant with Air Laws and Aircraft Limitations, et al, than an AOC holder. In fact, it could be the other way around. Just because some operator is a well established and venerated AOC holder, his safety compromises may evade detection, due to size of the operation, time constraints of CASA inspectors, and knowing how to steer CASA away from problem areas, or putting a sheen of compliance (eye wash), during a CASA audit.

Over the years CASA has cited many AOC holders for areas safety and maintenance discrepancies and non-compliance. These are a matter of public record.

Lastly, CASA will not close its eyes or ignore non-AOC holders. They must comply, will be monitored for compliance and will have scheduled audits.

C.A.S.A.'s mission statement:
To enhance and promote aviation safety through effective regulation and by encouraging the wider aviation community to embrace and deliver higher standards of safety.


C.A.S.A.'s mission role:
CASA's primary function is to conduct the safety regulation of civil air operations in Australia and the operation of Australian aircraft overseas.


C.A.S.A.'s Tripartite structure:
CASA and the ATSB have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) that sets out safety objectives and underlying values to guide the ongoing relationship between the two organisations. The MoU will maximise aviation safety outcomes and enhance public confidence in aviation safety.


Do you really believe CASA will compromise on safety or do anything to undermine public confidence in aviation safety?
Never take "No" for an answer.
hydraulicfailure
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby hydraulicfailure » Thu Oct 4 2012, 11:00

Ah. Brand vs blue label.
Qantas vs Tiger?
Ralph Lauren vs blue stratos?
Pinot vs cask claret
Panasonic vs Pisonic
Coco pops vs choc pops

They look the same cost a lot less but they ain't no substitute!
Practice
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Practice » Thu Oct 4 2012, 12:33

hydraulicfailure wrote:Qantas vs Tiger?

They look the same cost a lot less but they ain't no substitute!


The gap is getting closer between these two :D

Both AOC holders...
Bootsmadeforwalking
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Bootsmadeforwalking » Fri Mar 1 2013, 03:26

Anyway.
I've tried searching CASA website.
Does anyone have any info re the latest developments.
Cheers.
Steve.
harold
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby harold » Fri Mar 1 2013, 22:21

Interesting posts but from 4DEC when the changes are due, there won't be any discrepancies as there won't be any AOCs for any scenic or training/air work ops! All will change to the new Certificate of Approval regime' so it will be pretty much a level playing field.
When it comes time to sell-up, brand name and reputation will mean more than ever before but as said before, that alone is not any guarantee of safety etc!
Unfortunately, what Cassidy says is valid but personalities will always form part of the equation when it comes to employing people. Regardless of a persons' experience or qualifications, if they possess the personal traits of a sea slug, then they might find themselves sleeping in the back of their ute!
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Firefish » Sat Mar 2 2013, 03:24

Sitting on the fence with the whole AOC argument as I'm not in the tourism game. I would have thought that tamper proof flight recording devices for ALL aircraft might even up the playing field a bit though.
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hand in pants
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby hand in pants » Sat Mar 2 2013, 21:45

Firefish, I agree with you there, but, "tamper proof flight recording devices" are like "escape proof prisons", eventually some one finds a way out.
Some people will always find a way around the clock. It's these people that CASA should be gearing up to catch and remove from the industry.
As for having an AOC making your operation safer, it's just a bit of paper, the thing that should make your operation safe is YOU and your employees.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
harold
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby harold » Sun Mar 3 2013, 03:17

Ess, changes are due in DEC13. Industry consultation period is over and everyone has had ample opportunity to comment or make a submission!
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CYHeli
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby CYHeli » Sun Mar 3 2013, 10:18

Essie, I have not found the legislation reference for the AOC stuff, but here is the Comm Law link for a number of the new CASRs, the new Part 61 for licensing as an example starts on page 6. Still looking for the AOC changes.
The Part 61 section will work in conjunction with the new Parts 141 & 142. Anyone who is involved in instructing needs to keep an eye on these as the PPL & CPL courses will change. The dates on the link indicate that the Part. 61 is due to come in on the 4th Dec.
For students, it will be importent where you learn, the new CPL course will extend to 150 and can be completed as an 'integrated course' of only 100 hours, subject to conditions. For a school to be able to offer the integrated course they must operate under Part 142. A Part 141 school cannot offer the course. Parts 141 & 142 are on page 313 and onwards of the above link.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but that is how I read the changes. Harold, your thoughts?
List of CASR changes here.
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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hand in pants
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby hand in pants » Mon Mar 4 2013, 19:43

I know this is a bit off topic, but have a look at the changes, they will effect us all.
One thing I found is that we will need a flight review for a night rating, sling, winch, rappelling, formation flying,. All of this is going to cost a fortune and where are we going to get it done???
I wonder who thinks this stuff up and wether they think about the practicalities of the changes. They say it is to "bring us into line with ICAO". I for one don't operate an international airline...............................
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby mja » Tue Mar 5 2013, 01:49

Interesting thread and discussion;

There are bandits and crooks in every industry, there are private operators doing joy flights at the weekend ag. show (I've seen it). There are good operators and bad ones. Good managers and bad one's. I always beleived that the AOC was a good mechanism for CASA to do their job correctly as the regulator of safety. Therefore, if bad operator is audited, the AOC can be removed or suspended = no more bad operator. I know my boss valued his AOC highly, it is what allows you to operate.

However, CASA are either, broke and or have no staff to monitor AOC holders and carry out the audits. This is a way of self regulation and it removes their lack of repsonsibilty if a bad operator is just that, a bad operator.

Most of the points raised are valid, however, I truly believe that the political hot-spot is Airlines, as long as airlines are going well (operationally) and are safe, thats all the government care about. CASA are a government funded operation, they are told what to do by the government and if it means cost cutting, then it goes.

Fly Safe.............. :too_cool:
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby NWAB2013 » Sat Apr 18 2015, 22:12

An old topic but what was the outcome???
chocolate
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby chocolate » Sat Apr 18 2015, 23:51

NWAB2013 wrote:An old topic but what was the outcome???


Nprm put out for second round of consultation comments. Closed 16april. Discussion paper sept 2012....moving a tad slowly.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby NWA194 » Fri Jun 17 2016, 06:57

Aaaaaand its been over 12 months since the last comment on this topic...
what, if anything, has happened? Are we any closer to knowing what, if anything, will change regarding the need for AOC's by small operators?



(Oh and "Hi everyone" its my first post here, been lurking for a long time)

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