casa ..aoc scenic flights

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chocolate
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casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby chocolate » Sun Sep 30 2012, 09:19

CASA have put out a discussion paper aoc requirements for local scenic flights. 4 options ate put fwd. No aoc and no part 119 operator mgt systems compliance is one . Ie way way lower cost to start a business up.
The current setup is crippling the industry in my humble opinion. And actively discouraging new operators in non complex areas such as scenic flights in g airspace.

Well worth the effort to read with part 133 as well. Anyone else going to put in a response?
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby CYHeli » Sun Sep 30 2012, 10:42

What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby angrywasp » Mon Oct 1 2012, 06:46

Agreed Essie, The public has an expectation that there are certain standards met by an operator who holds an A.O.C. and that there is an investment in obtaining and maintaining such levels of compliance. If young Fred or Sally having recently acquired his/ her license and a loan from Mum or Dad sets up helicopter joy rides at the farm gate, is that really going to be doing the industry a whole lot of good ? If it looks like Part 119 and or 135 in its operation, seems queer to dilute it.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Hello Pilots » Mon Oct 1 2012, 19:34

angrywasp wrote:Agreed Essie, The public has an expectation that there are certain standards met by an operator who holds an A.O.C. and that there is an investment in obtaining and maintaining such levels of compliance. If young Fred or Sally having recently acquired his/ her license and a loan from Mum or Dad sets up helicopter joy rides at the farm gate, is that really going to be doing the industry a whole lot of good ? If it looks like Part 119 and or 135 in its operation, seems queer to dilute it.


Do you think the public actually know what an AOC is! The last time I actually paid any attention to helicopter scenic operations, generally the seats were filled by freshly minted CPLs who are there only to gain experience....may as well tell the public that since you are piping on about safety standards
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby froginasock » Mon Oct 1 2012, 20:14

Will open a pandoras box of what operations require an AOC and what can 'do without' ... Despite most operators using fresh CPL drivers they still require an ops manual and some form of line checks etc. Wonder what insurance companies will make of it .. or do we assume that the single machine farm gate operator will go uninsured with no carriers liability.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby chocolate » Mon Oct 1 2012, 21:58

What insurance y have makes no difference to safety of pax imho. Or how risks are identified and managed by a scenjcs operator.
Pt 2. Without scenics and mustering operators where is the industry going to get the pilots wvth the 500/1000 hr min experience for the medium to lrge operations.?
As there are one person operations and by there vert nature they come and go the increased difficulty if obtaining an aoc has and is strangling the industry imho. At this pt in time w higher and bigger hoops in the upcoming legislation changes. Glad to see CASA at least recognise the problem.

Discuss.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby froginasock » Mon Oct 1 2012, 23:43

I have no problem with changing the application process for an AOC and reducing the costs involved with it, just operating without one opens up issues .. that's all.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby hand in pants » Tue Oct 2 2012, 04:39

Agree with froggie, at least with an AOC there is some oversite of who is doing what, where. Remove the need for one and everybody will be having at it, no line checks, nobody looking at the operation from a safety point of view. It becomes as simple as opening the car boot and off you go. Those that have an AOC and have gone to the trouble of getting one and having in place all that it requires will be left in the cold and will have wasted their money and time.
An AOC is hard to get for a reason.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby cassidy_copter » Tue Oct 2 2012, 10:21

Angrywasp
The public has an expectation that there are certain standards met by an operator who holds an A.O.C. and that there is an investment in obtaining and maintaining such levels of compliance.


The public has the same expectation boarding a flight with a major airline, within Australia. Consider this scenario, just prior to departure from ADL. I was seated at the Emergency Exit Row, right side. Passengers were filling the seats and settling in. I glanced across at the opposite Emergency Exit row and had noticed the Emergency Exit Door was not properly installed. How do I know? I have flown the same aircraft Type 3,427 hours, as Captain. My point is the improperly installed/closed Emergency Exit Door was missed by Line Maintenance, during his/their Preflight, missed by the Senior Cabin Attendant during Preflight, missed by the Captain and the First Officer, during Preflight. The public can expect all they want, but that did not preclude Air France 447 from a mid-Atlantic splashdown or Turkish Airlines from plowing up a field short of the runway at Schiphol and countless more through Aviation history. I would think that any Air Carrier is at the top of the AOC game.

An Air Operators Certificate is no guarantee. Bottom line of defence is the Regulator establishing, surveilling, inspecting and enforcing compliance with the Air Laws and the Operator's conscience taking precedence over "commercial realities".

H.I.P.
with an AOC there is some oversite of who is doing what, where.
Those that have an AOC and have gone to the trouble of getting one and having in place all that it requires will be left in the cold and will have wasted their money and time.


Having an AOC definitely does not guarantee that an AOC Holder will be doing things according to the Letter nor the Spirit of the Law. I can state for a fact that airlines I have worked for did not comply. Same with Helicopter Operators. How often does C.A.S.A. get out to some remote AOC Holder? How many times, during the past 12 months have you seen a C.A.S.A. Flight Operations Inspector at an Airport monitoring aircraft operations with binoculars and handheld radio? How many times during the past 12 months have you seen a C.A.S.A. Flight Operations Inspector doing a Ramp Check for some R.P.T. AOC Holder. In my previous experience, overseas, these were common occurrences. Surveillance was common. I remember, during my preflight of a Bell Jet Ranger, on a pier in downtown San Francisco, a government sedan rolled to a stop and the Inspector put a scale on the ground and asked me to stand on it and asking me about ballast. I have had frequent visitors to the cockpits of much larger aircraft, during a Ramp Check. Constant education, surveillance or the threat of, plus no-notice inspections of operators assures compliance.

As long as C.A.S.A. mandates registration with C.A.S.A. and compliance with the various regulations and an aircraft maintenance program, appropriate insurance, whether an operator holds an AOC or not for Sightseeing/Tourism operations, is irrelevant. All an AOC does is make the process unnecessarily expensive, time-consuming to achieve and becomes an exclusive club.

If an Operator wishes to conduct Sightseeing flights in aircraft weighing less than 3,402 kilograms, less than 50nm, he should be able to do it. That simple. This will only help to encourage tourism in impoverished states, like Tasmania, that relies on tourism. This will only help an Owner/Operator get his business off the ground, in the first instance, and as it expands toward the dimension and scope of an AOC, this rule change will give him/her the time and the cashflow to apply for an AOC. This is a win-win for the Ma & Pa small business owner, for Aviation enthusiasts, and for CASA, as it will free up their resources to fry bigger fish.

Does it even suggest anywhere there will be zero checks and balances? Does it suggest the Chief Pilot/Owner will not be responsible? Does it suggest there will be no training, no evaluation or assessment or annual recurrent checks by an ATO? Not at all!

Why is Aviation more evolved, productive, and affordable across the North American continent? I feel Aviation, in Australia, where one needs an endorsement just to use the aircraft dunny, is over-regulated and ridiculously over-priced, yet it is not any safer, statistically-speaking.

What I think.
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Ian Batton
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Ian Batton » Wed Oct 3 2012, 02:43

So they set up down the road from a current AOC scenic flight operation and send em broke, great !
Now where's my beer
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Iceman » Wed Oct 3 2012, 04:46

Ian Batton wrote:So they set up down the road from a current AOC scenic flight operation and send em broke, great !


Only if your over priced... :D
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Ian Batton » Wed Oct 3 2012, 06:40

f#%k off iceman.
Now where's my beer
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby cassidy_copter » Wed Oct 3 2012, 07:25

Iceman wrote:
So they set up down the road from a current AOC scenic flight operation and send em broke, great !


Nothing like a bit of healthy competition to level the playing field and providing customers/clients with more options. That is the way the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission sees it.

"The ACCC promotes competition and fair trade in the market place to benefit consumers, businesses and the community."

Why is the cost of an Economy Class or Business Class airline ticket so high, in Australia? Virtually nil competition.

IF, IF the AOC holder "down the road" is truly top shelf and has something more or better to offer than the non-AOC Holder, then customers will be beating down your door. If not, well they will be knocking equally on the competition's door or maybe more, until you lift your game.

Flying in Australia is unnecessarily and ridiculously over-priced, to the point that it has become an exclusive club. The club-members keep it that way. Time to change the rules, introduce more competition, and stimulate real growth in Aviation.

For example, though ownership and operating costs are the same, why should flying a Cessna 172 cost more to rent ($240/Hour), in Australia, than in the USA ($139/Hour to $155/Hour), for example? Why should a Robinson 22 cost $450/Hour to $580/hours, in Australia, versus $150/Hour to $329/Hour in the USA?

I have met so many Australians whom want to learn how to fly, but tell me they cannot afford it.

The Australian aviation industry "club-members" is sodomising itself.

If you are going broke or fear competition from non-AOC Holders, that is your problem.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Ag-Rotor » Wed Oct 3 2012, 07:42

Can you explain Mr Guru Cassidy_Coptor at $450/hr for an R22 and paying all operating costs.............where is all the profit being made ????
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby cassidy_copter » Wed Oct 3 2012, 08:43

Ag-Rotor wrote:
Can you explain Mr Guru Cassidy_Coptor at $450/hr for an R22 and paying all operating costs.............where is all the profit being made ????


I was an aircraft owner, once upon a time. I paid for it within 3 years. You are not telling me anything.

Operating Costs for a Robinson 22Beta:
http://www.robinsonheli.com/price_lists_eocs/r22_eoc.pdf

Assume you are a busy operator, flying your sole R22 Beta 1,000 hours/year, charging $450/hours + miscellaneous fees + GST. $450 - $130/Hour Total Operating Cost, conservatively estimating that will leave you with $320,000 per year . . . minus your salary, utilities, hangar rent, $48,000 for a Grade 2 Instructor, incidentals.

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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby The Collective » Wed Oct 3 2012, 09:06

cassidy_copter wrote:
Ag-Rotor wrote:
Can you explain Mr Guru Cassidy_Coptor at $450/hr for an R22 and paying all operating costs.............where is all the profit being made ????


I was an aircraft owner, once upon a time. I paid for it within 3 years. You are not telling me anything.

Operating Costs for a Robinson 22Beta:
http://www.robinsonheli.com/price_lists_eocs/r22_eoc.pdf

Assume you are a busy operator, flying your sole R22 Beta 1,000 hours/year, charging $450/hours + miscellaneous fees + GST. $450 - $130/Hour Total Operating Cost, conservatively estimating that will leave you with $320,000 per year . . . minus your salary, utilities, hangar rent, $48,000 for a Grade 2 Instructor, incidentals.

Mr. Guru


From that operating cost list:
Fuel @ $5.35 per gallon
Labor @ $80 per hour
Liability Insurance $1,920/a
Hull Insurance $6,130/a
Unscheduled Maintenance, Parts and Labor @ $80 per hour $5.92 per hour

In short: That ain't happening. Not in the US, and definitely not here.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Twistgrip » Wed Oct 3 2012, 09:24

I short as I see it and I keep coming back to the same point, Casa keeps issuing AOC's annually to the point where the market is saturated with operators compared to our small demand for GA rotary wing charter (offshore etc aside here). The pie gets smaller for every operator to make money.

Yes the customers have more choice, this in turn drives the prices down further every year as companies struggle to get any turnover they can at any cost until something gives(bank manager ) the way I see it is that those with the deepest pockets win eventually.

That is why it is so important to have a niche and to have a product standout amongst your competitors.

Do I see this as a good idea? In a word No i don't. I think it could be the demise of many well established operators. Some of you may say competition is healthy. Well I guess at the end of the day the market will determine how many operators are left.
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby cassidy_copter » Wed Oct 3 2012, 09:30

The Collective wrote:
That ain't happening. Not in the US, and definitely not here.


Well, anything you read from any aircraft manufacturer, including aircraft performance, tends to be optimistic and merely a guide.

Why not put some actual numbers to it? Prove there's no money in it, no profit to be made. Throughout Aviation history, there have been operators whom started with just one aircraft and made a go of it. Many lasted, while some didn't.

Avgas $7.04/Gallon in Australia or $1.86/Litre . . . OK, Frank was less than $2.00/gallon off. So, add $13.52/Hour to the Direct Operating Cost

An Owner/Pilot can perform a significant amount of maintenance, himself, so Labour Cost could be less than Frank quotes, in fact. I did my own maintenance, before I had an Aircraft Mechanic Licence.

Insurance . . . Shop around.

Suppose you take $75,000 to $150,000/year off the top for your salary . . . That still leaves a pretty good chunk of change.

Crap, if C.A.S.A. changes the rules of the game, I think I will go into business. Why, not?

Who would have guessed Pan Am or Ansett would go broke?
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Iceman » Wed Oct 3 2012, 10:11

Ian Batton wrote:f#%k off iceman.


if that's the best argument you can provide " Batton" let me suggest you are going to have a problem, PMSL

great response ha haha ha ha aha :shock: and you run a business ROFLMAO
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Re: casa ..aoc scenic flights

Postby Ag-Rotor » Wed Oct 3 2012, 10:18

Anyone doing their sums on operating costs for Robinson Helicopters and use Frank's figures are going to sell themselves horribly short. His website should say the aircraft and components have an approximate retirement life of 2200hrs, at any time regulators or Robinson can make you make changes ( ie Bladder Tank mods ) , use the engine warranty paper work to wipe your bum on as Lycoming don't do warranty. Buy an R22 or R44 and you'll be rolling in cash to which you'll think you have done a couple of rounds in the ring with Mahamid Alli by the time everyone is finished dragging all the cash off you.

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