Think it is hard to get a job now? It is going to get worse.

[harold]

Skypig, your comments are unwarranted and just plainly incorrect!
Up until only 3 weeks ago, there was not 1 CFI in Sydney with Independent ATO status so therefore not 1 CFI in Sydney area testing their own CPL's or Instructors!

[skypig]

Mick
Don’t be concerned.

Here is one of my observations:
I knew heaps of instructors who commenced their ratings in Sydney at 360hrs, they did 15 of the 40hrs as “Mutual”. I never heard of anyone, ever failing the Instructor Rating test.
I went to a QLD school with a good reputation. I had significantly more than 360hrs commencing the Instructor course. I did 40hrs with a G1 and was still required to do another hour to meet the standard before doing the test. The other applicant that day failed his first attempt.

At that time, I was convinced there were 2 different standards. “Sydney Basin” and “The rest”. This was a generalisation. Of course there were some bad schools everywhere.....

Harold
You don't have to be an independent ATO to test your schools CPLs/Instructors
I've admitted my knowledge is dated.
Will you admit you are "plainly incorrect"?

SP

[harold]

Skypig - WRONG! I say it again, there is not one CFI in the Sydney basin area in the last 5 years who have test approval for Instructor Ratings or CPL's. (And I appologise but I overlook CT)
On an aside; my understanding is that you actually did your Instructor Rating at newcastle???

[Izzy Fullashat]

Harold

Wasn't there Mr Townsend..............my info might be a bit outdated as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Izzy (I might be as I said)

[harold]

Chris Townsend is an Independent ATO.
Billy Miller - CFI ATO
Mark Donahue - CFI ATO
Peter Holstein-CFI ATO
John Andreson - CFI ATO
Nick McMannus - CFI ATO

And for Skypig - CFI's need to be Independent ATO's before they can test for CPL or Instructor's for themselves or others or PPL/GFPT etc for other schools.

[NZHelo]

Someone just picked up their bat and ball

[skypig]

Now I’m confused
.
Harold

Chris Townsend is an Independent ATO.
Billy Miller - CFI ATO
Mark Donahue - CFI ATO
Peter Holstein-CFI ATO
John Andreson - CFI ATO
Nick McMannus - CFI ATO

And for Skypig - CFI's need to be Independent ATO's before they can test for CPL or Instructor's for themselves or others or PPL/GFPT etc for other schools.

You are saying those CFI’s are ATOs but they can’t test their own students because they aren’t Independent? (or perhaps they only hold ATO approval up to PPL?)
I could be wrong, but was unaware that “independence” was the key. I have only limited experience, once being an ATO.

Harold, where are you getting your info? From your employer, CASA?

At the very least you are wrong about where I did my instructor rating.

Sky "fishing" Pig

[harold]

Skypig, correct! CFI ATOs can only test to PPL and NVFR (and some not even to that level). They need to be Independent ATO's to test for any higher licence (although there are a couple of exceptions yet none relevent to Sydney area)
My information is coming from 'experience' and CASA and IS correct!
......and I understood you did your rating with Iva in Newcastle?

[Izzy Fullashat]

Harold

A slight "EDIT" will always blow your arguement out of the water..............and Mr Piglet did retract his statement


Izzy (Again not this time)

[skypig]

Interesting, as usual I'm always learning.

As mentioned, not all your information/ understanding is correct.

Sky "not a current ATO" Pig

[NoMoneyz]

Part of me hopes they bring this in, the other hopes they don't!

[Mag seal]

The thing is, does anyone really think that a politcal party will honour any of their pre-election promises? Keep saving dudes!

[Bite_me]

Harold, just to correct a previous post of yours.
Present ATO status in Sydney area is:
Chris Townsend - Townsend Helicopters - CFIATO and Independent ATO
Bill Miller - Bankstown Helicopters - CFIATO
Mark Donahue - HTT- CFIATO
Peter Holstein - Aerowasp Helicopters - CFIATO and Independent ATO
John Anderson - Helicopters Pty Ltd - No Status
Nich McManus - Dynamic Helicopters - CFIATO

[cat herder]

Just an observation, but you dont see too many Oz pilots rushing to NZ for the job opportunities and good pay, but you do see lots of NZ pilots going anywhere but NZ for work and conditions. I'd suggest their market is oversaturated, is that what we want? My personal opinion is it will bugger pay and conditions starting from the bottom and rising up to the top.

[havick]

Cat Herder, I tend to disagree with you on one point. The top end of the industry will not feel the effects at all. Currently the industry is direly short of ME-IFR captains, I personally know of some EMS bases struggling to fill positions with suitable drivers. However as you suggested what will happen is the newbies will find it much harder than it already is to find that elusive 1st and 2nd gig.

my 2c

[ithinkflyingischoice]

Just a couple of points
perhaps one reason ozzies arent heading to NZ as one poster above mentioned, is because a new pilot from oz has less training/training in different conditions to those in nz and based on those two points alone is far less likely to get a new cpl job in nz regardless of pay offered/conditions etc.....

a lot of poo poohing the student loan scheme but its all focused on the student, id hazard a guess that the students who seriously want and will go after a career in aviation will be the ones who steer clear of the 2-3 schools in NZ that are in it for the money (5 minutes on the phone to some heli operators will tell you the ones) ie one in ........... and go to ones that actually train a student to the highest level possible regardless of whether its loaned $ or not. what I mean by focused on the student is there are some real positive spinoffs for other aspects of the industry that go unmentioned and im thinking of the large amount of extra hours flown resulting in more demand for engineers and all the other bits that go into the industry right down o the extra admin staff, might not justify training so many students but I think its a bit short sighted to say its bad full stop.

personally im in favor of loans (so everyone has an opportunity and can still spend money on having a life/wife/other goals, yes they could save up but so could every other profession that has a loan system) but capped to a realistic number per year decided by an industry board or similar ie 20 or whatever and full aptitude/psyhchometric testing maybe even a year on the hanger floor before flying etc etc. to me there is no difference between funding a doctor for a similar amount who may go overseas or a chopper pilot and those who say they all go to aussie or wherever then thats just the way of the world same as a doctor comes from india and works cheaper, at the end of the day companies have a responsibility to the people paying the bills first and foremost and are entitled to hire the BEST candidate wherever they came from and however they trained be it loaned from the government, loaned from the parents/bank.overpaid job/sweatshop etc.

as for those students who do a license because it seemed like a good thing at the time and never follow through and get a job, where is the harm in that, they will start to pay the money back as soon as they get a minimum pay job so there is no hiding from that and in the meantime they have provided instructors/engineers/admin the industry as a whole etc etc etc with work

Finally to "Queestace" I wonder if you came to NZ from Oz as you realised that rightly or wrongly a license from NZ (albeit from the above hinted at school) would give you a better chance here or in oz, what I would like to know is where you get your info on student loans being stopped, For all the years i have been in the training side of the industry I have heard this rumor and at this stage its still just a rumor, yes the loans are being reviewed in a couple of months as they regularly are but nothing is going to change in this review round, I would ask you to post a link to something that says otherwise!

long first post,thanks for reading, please dont slaughter me for printing my views

[Queestce]

Certainly am not trying to insinuate the loan WILL be stopped, and I am DEFINTAELY not in a position to know. My words were in fact;

"...as the NZ govt debates on pulling the plug on the whole thing...."

Operative word being debate, but I have heard from quite a few different people in the industry (fixed and rotary wing) who seem to indicate there will be a few changes next year. Perhaps just a reduction in the number of available efts. But once again - I know very little in general let alone about the loan situation

And yep, I did come accross the ditch from Aus - for many reasons but the higher hour lic and attached extras were a strong incentive. Student loan funding was also a factor

[cat herder]

Havick,

While I agree in part, the ME-IFR part of the industry is a slightly different beast for my money, due to the fact that the training is generally carried out by the employer not the employee or ex mil trained (pay has to be better than the mil or why leave). I remember vaugely (many beers between then and now) about 5 years ago the threads on the dark side saying the shortage of experienced ME-IFR was coming due to the lack of training being done. Management in the offshore side of things has been reactive rather than proactive, and this is the result. A shortage of experienced drivers. Also offshore wages have more International pressures on them due to the companies that conduct these ops.

ITFIC,

"perhaps one reason ozzies arent heading to NZ as one poster above mentioned, is because a new pilot from oz has less training/training in different conditions to those in nz and based on those two points alone is far less likely to get a new cpl job in nz regardless of pay offered/conditions etc....."

I'm not just talking about new pilots, and as for training in different conditions, that would mean that NZ pilots coming to Oz shouldn't get a start, due to the different conditions, the difference between 105 and 150 hours is negligible and they both will require further supervision and training. That said I do like the idea of the sling and mountain training in the syllabus, and think it should be incorporated into the Oz Syllabus. So are you saying new Oz pilots won't get a job in NZ due to less training and hours, but there are plenty of NZ instuctors in OZ, they can get there instructor rating with less total time and less hours for their rating, so I don't think that argument holds water, the fact is they are used here cause there cheap. There seems to be an opinion from some NZ pilots (definately not all of them) that NZ produces some kind of super pilot that can't be replicated by any other country.

"a lot of poo poohing the student loan scheme but its all focused on the student, id hazard a guess that the students who seriously want and will go after a career in aviation will be the ones who steer clear of the 2-3 schools in NZ that are in it for the money (5 minutes on the phone to some heli operators will tell you the ones) ie one in ........... and go to ones that actually train a student to the highest level possible regardless of whether its loaned $ or not. what I mean by focused on the student is there are some real positive spinoffs for other aspects of the industry that go unmentioned and im thinking of the large amount of extra hours flown resulting in more demand for engineers and all the other bits that go into the industry right down o the extra admin staff, might not justify training so many students but I think its a bit short sighted to say its bad full stop."

So are you saying that sausage factory schools are more likely to exist when the student loans system is in place? I agree that the dedicated student will get the license with or without student loans. Agreed there are some spin off benifits, there is also a dark side, how many CPL licensed loader drivers are there in NZ working for free. A gain of money on one side and a loss on the other.

"personally im in favor of loans (so everyone has an opportunity and can still spend money on having a life/wife/other goals, yes they could save up but so could every other profession that has a loan system) but capped to a realistic number per year decided by an industry board or similar ie 20 or whatever and full aptitude/psyhchometric testing maybe even a year on the hanger floor before flying etc etc. to me there is no difference between funding a doctor for a similar amount who may go overseas or a chopper pilot and those who say they all go to aussie or wherever then thats just the way of the world same as a doctor comes from india and works cheaper, at the end of the day companies have a responsibility to the people paying the bills first and foremost and are entitled to hire the BEST candidate wherever they came from and however they trained be it loaned from the government, loaned from the parents/bank.overpaid job/sweatshop etc."

Never said I wasn't in favor of loans, I used a personal loan to pay for part of my license, a bank loan requires a certain level of commitment,, due to the interest to be paid and you start to repay it immediatley, you cant just throw your job in and go and work for free. Just don't agree with the student loan style as it can attract the romantic dreamers, walter mittys and wannbees that drive pay and conditions down, and we all ready have enough of them in the industry. It's all part of the "No money down" "pay later" phycology , just look around any Uni at the professional students, who come back year after year. they're there because they think they're not paying for it.

As for the doctor analogy and the best candidate, Dr Patel jumps to my mind straight away.

"as for those students who do a license because it seemed like a good thing at the time and never follow through and get a job, where is the harm in that, they will start to pay the money back as soon as they get a minimum pay job so there is no hiding from that and in the meantime they have provided instructors/engineers/admin the industry as a whole etc etc etc with work
"

While these guys are loved by the schools and do bring cashflow to the industry, from a pilots point of view they do cause a certain amount of harm, they end up "volunteering" their services around the industry and take hours and experience from a real, dedicated candidate.

sorry for the monster response, but you started it
oh and please excuse my spelling

Cat

[ithinkflyingischoice]

Not at all its good to see a thought provoking thread on here with well thought out comments from the likes of yourself bit more interesting than the all too common mud slinging. Unfortunately I dont know how to quote wih nice color backgrounds your text so beer with me.

I think when youve done 105hrs versus 150 at that stage of a career the differance is not negligable, it would be more negligible if the 50hrs differance was carting a tourist around the same loop however when its extra training with the slling etc it obviously is beneficial, I dont know whats in the aussie sylabus so cant go to deep on that topic. what I mean by different conditions is the sling/mountain stuff that you would need to get a job here as a new cpl, I wasnt talking about more experianced pilots, my gut feeling is an experianced pilot would be looking for work elsewhere before in NZ. so yes new oz pilots are at a disadvantage not so much the hours because a low time pilot is always a big call to employ but they simply dont have the sling etc needed in NZ, as for the instructors, the hour differance is negligible there in comparison to the earlier point however to my mind it depends on how they got the hours ie doing circuits hour building or working as a pilot doing various types of flying. Seems to me to be a simple thing to even out if its that much of an issue.

Sausage factory schools dont have to exist at all with some tweaks to the system like I mentioned, ie cut numbers/proper testing of applicants not just lip service. again another simple fix and if aussie goes down the loan path then an easy problem to avoid from the get go. I know 4 loader drivers, all on good salaries although they work hard hours, one on a wage.

Its my experiance that the losers who get a license for the hell of it dont actually go looking for jobs and if they do, after one roadtrip give up never to be heard from again and thus not troubling the industry apart from having supported it for 150hrs.
My feeling is that here those that volunteer their services dont actually get far and those that take them up on the offer dont get far either and to be honest I dont know anyone in the industry doing it for free although Im sure there are some.

Anyway, not trying to shoot your points down, like I say just my view and another perspective on things. I personally think if Oz goes the loan way then if you learn from our mistakes and be careful it can be a good thing all round.

[CYHeli]

One thing that doesn't get a mention is that the loans scheme is for across the board for all/most industries. It is not aviation specific and if enough people complained about the loans for aviation, then the legislation would have to exempt aviation whilst still providing loans for other industries, cooks for example.

It would be interesting to listen to the arguments that one industry is deserving whilst another is not. It is not always about correcting a skills shortage, it is also about giving people opportunity. It is the argument about the rich getting richer and the poor stay poor. Only rich people get opportunity, so lets create a level playing field, hence the loans scheme.

That is what has happened (from what I read) in NZ. People are given opportunity and whether or not they follow through on that opportunity (new licence) is up to them. The government does care that the student/trainee pay back the loan and the intent is that it is from the training provided, but it doesn't really matter so long as the gov gets the money back.