First year pilot and the award

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Mag seal » Sat Apr 14 2012, 03:00

I agree with CYheli on this one. People seem to assume that operators actually speak to each other, most of them don't. If they need a bloke with certain hours for a contract, if he rocks up and can operate safely they normally get the gig regardless of background. They all know sometimes people leave jobs not on the best terms with their previous employer and don't seem to care about it.

As for low pay on first jobs:
A quick calculation on a $80 dollar per seat 10 minute scenic will give you an hourly rate of $960 per hour, if you fill the 3rd seat (assuming it's a R44) it's $1440 per flight hour. Not a bad hourly rate. If you have a good spot you should be doing about 400-500 hours of scenics. So someone is making money out of the venture.
It's my opinion that most scenic flight operators only really expect a pilot to stay for a year on the pay they provide and are not surprised or care when the pilot moves on after 500 or 600 hours. They don't need 3000 hour pilots doing laps of the attraction.

I use scenic flights as an example because it's most likely going to be your first commercial job.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby cassidy_copter » Sun Apr 15 2012, 11:36

SuperF Super Fly? wrote:

Unfortunately CC, when you get employees with the attitude that you are encouraging on here . . . It's all about attitude guys

Stir, have a go at the boss, get award back pay, before you have another job, chances are you won't get another job...


The ONLY attitude I encourage on here is to stand up for WHAT IS RIGHT. Stand up for what you believe in. Sorry to say, but Australians tend to roll over, rather than standing up for their rights. So, you tend to get taken advantage of.

And, Yankee, I turned down a Chief Pilot job, because the owner was just not offering enough money, about $20,000/year less. And, I needed the job. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. The RPT operator is out of business.

If you are one of those employers I refer to above, SuperF . . . Get stuffed. Wouldn't want to work for someone who thinks an employee should just roll over, suck it up.

You'll make a fine Chief Pilot, one day, Super Fly. Image

And, news flash, there will always be another job, sooner or later.

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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby CYHeli » Sun Apr 15 2012, 22:13

Cass, I could be wrong, but reading between the lines I would say that SuperF is short for super phosphate and he is a CP of a New Zealand Ag company. That's how he often comes across. But as I said, I could be wrong.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Practice » Tue Apr 17 2012, 00:02

cassidy_copter wrote:The ONLY attitude I encourage on here is to stand up for WHAT IS RIGHT. Stand up for what you believe in. Sorry to say, but Australians tend to roll over, rather than standing up for their rights. So, you tend to get taken advantage of.



Well said CC.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Hugh Bosh » Tue Apr 17 2012, 01:25

Pegs wrote: Remember small industry, everyone talks, how long do you think an investigation into wages not being paid would take to become public knowledge? Doesn't then take much work for other people to work out who the pilot was who lodged the complaint, chances are the cheesed off ex employer will be happy o tell people, you job opportunities could be limited after that.


Chances are, if an operator is paying less than the award to one person, he's paid one or more current or former employees less than the award as well. Any one of whom could have made a complaint.

Furthermore, if a disgruntled operator wants to start ringing around other operators and tell them all about how he was forced to hand over back-pay by FWA because he was underpaying his staff, then he might find that there are not too many business owners give him sympathetic hearings. The majority of employers do the right thing and would not take a kind view of being unfairly undercut by rogue operators.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby SuperF » Tue Apr 17 2012, 10:29

sorry CC you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick. ive previously posted that i pay my ground crew well over $60k/yr, and i wish that i could afford to pay them twice that.
We dont have award in NZ, over here $13/hr, approx is minimum wage and it doesnt matter what the job is. god knows how anyone lives on that income.

all i was saying was watch the attitude, statements like, i punched the guy out and would do it again. run him broke, blah, blah blah. they are not conducive to a good work environment. if your staff are assholes, its not going to work out. if your boss is an asshole its not going to work out, move on, but watch your attitude, because it is a small industry, and your attitude and reputation is all you get to take from one place to another.

Also, ranting about tight bum employers that dont pay wages, so that they can buy another toy, etc, is so far off the mark its laughable. yes, lots of employers are tight asses, lots dont pay enough, but most of the time its because they dont make enough money. lots of guys spend money on toys as well, good on them, for some reason a pilot is allowed to have a flash car or own a boat, but as soon as the boss does hes an asshole taking something from the staff. How many operators are really making that huge fortune that every employee thinks the boss is making? For the money tied up, and the risk involved, very few are making a good return on their investment.

All your comments come from RPT ops as well, aeroplane pilot wages have never matched helicopter wages, some are way higher, some way lower. when we talk about hours flown, you say how many you did in a 737 in china, sorry but it is not applicable to heli ops in oz.

And to all the junior pilots out there, remember, if you choose to accept underpayment, because you really want to fly, then you are helping to screw the industry, as much as the bum that isnt paying you enough. If every pilot demanded award wages, then every operator would pay it, otherwise they would not have a pilot to fly their helicopter, and they can only fly one at a time themselves. just something to think about, every pilot is in the same situation as every dumb operator that underprices work, just to get the jobs to keep the cash flowing, you think that you have to underprice everything because otherwise the "other guy" will get the work. There is always the other guy out there, and every a-hole, client or boss that doesnt want to pay the real rate will tell you about them. My answer to clients that can get the work done cheaper... get them, that is my price that i need, if someone can do it cheaper, get them while you can, soon enough they will go broke and you will have to come back to me, at my rate. sure enough it happens.

But remember, watch your attitude, at the end of the day, he is your boss, and you did accept below award rates to begin with. talk nicely, try to get award, or more, if its not going to happen, look to move on, just because the boss is an bum, doesnt mean that you have to be. fly safe.

close cy, not exact, but very close.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Twistgrip » Tue Apr 17 2012, 11:02

As HIP has said in another post, If your not happy with conditions presented to you....move on simple really. If your prepared to accept the offer well then you've already made your mind up as to what you would expect for your qualifications at the time
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby cassidy_copter » Thu Apr 19 2012, 00:30

SuperF wrote:
All your comments come from RPT ops as well, aeroplane pilot wages have never matched helicopter wages


You are correct on that point. Sometimes Helicopter wages are more. I know of a current situation where a fixed-wing 19 passenger turboprop operator is offering tops $100,000 for a Check and Training Captain, but a Bell 206 Operator is paying more than $130,000.

And,
All i was saying was watch the attitude, statements like, i punched the guy out and would do it again. run him broke, blah, blah blah.


If I stick my neck out on the line, day after day, carrying an operator, and the guy owes me money, how else do I make my point with him, when talking nicely didn't work? That was the last resort. One way or another, I am going to get my money's worth or what I am owed.

your attitude and reputation is all you get to take from one place to another.


Often times it is nothing more than gossip from jealous bastards or from those whom feel threatened. How many guys are out there have an undeserved bad reputation, due to gossip-mongers, or some issue taken out of context, whom have developed a bad attitude over time, as a result?

The Chief Pilot whom got a punch in the mouth for back wages owed me, never prevented me from getting another job, when I listed his company as part of my employment history to substantiate hours in a particular aircraft. Matter of fact, it led me to a better job.

If there was a bit more honesty, transparency, compliance with the regulations, less coercion to get a pilot to do something he is not up to, by employers, then I suspect an employee would not cop an attitude.

Regarding the amount of hours flown, the third world location and conditions flown in, with inexperienced and incompetent crew is relevant and a point was made.

And to all the junior pilots out there, remember, if you choose to accept underpayment, because you really want to fly, then you are helping to screw the industry, as much as the bum that isnt paying you enough. If every pilot demanded award wages, then every operator would pay it, otherwise they would not have a pilot to fly their helicopter . . . My answer to clients that can get the work done cheaper... get them, that is my price that i need, if someone can do it cheaper, get them while you can, soon enough they will go broke and you will have to come back to me, at my rate.


The ONLY valid points you made, and well said.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Snowcarver04 » Thu Apr 19 2012, 00:48

I think you guys forget how hard it is to get a start in this industry. Or maybe it was a bit easier in your day. Do you really think the low time pilot who has been struggling to find a job for the last how ever many months or years is going to turn down a job because he isn't getting paid enough. He is desperate for a break and some low time pilots may say no or fight it like this chap but I think most will just put up with the lower than award pay. It's all about supply and demand and there is certainly a much higher supply of low time pilots than there is demand for. Unfortunately I don't think this will change.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Hugh Bosh » Thu Apr 19 2012, 02:51

Snowcarver04 wrote: Do you really think the low time pilot who has been struggling to find a job for the last how ever many months or years is going to turn down a job because he isn't getting paid enough.


Sorry, I don't understand your logic. Are you saying that the end justifies the means? What do suppose the outcome is when everyone adopts this philosophy?

On what basis is it OK, ethically, morally or legally, to work for less than the lawful minimum wage and undercut other professional pilots just so you can 'get a break'?

Snowcarver04 wrote: He is desperate for a break and some low time pilots may say no or fight it like this chap but I think most will just put up with the lower than award pay. It's all about supply and demand and there is certainly a much higher supply of low time pilots than there is demand for. Unfortunately I don't think this will change


If someone can't due their due diligence and investigate the relative supply and demand for their profession before they drop $80K on training, they only have themselves to blame. No one suggested it was easy, no one said that all CPL holders are entitled to a job, and no one should employ a pilot if they can't pay them what they are legally obliged to.

Someone's 'desperation for a job' is a pathetic excuse for selfish, unlawful and unethical practices. We're not in the middle of the Great Depression here and no one is forcing you to work as a helicopter pilot.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Gator » Thu Apr 19 2012, 06:22

Hugh Bosh wrote:Someone's 'desperation for a job' is a pathetic excuse for selfish, unlawful and unethical practices.

What about those people who are at the other end of the spectrum who are NOT so desparate for a job?

I'm probably a bit older than some of you guys and am fortunate enough to not have to solely rely on income from full time employment. This means if I was a fresh CPL holder looking for my first gig, the wage would only be a secondary consideration, as I would be looking at the overall package on offer with my priority being gaining the specific skills and experience necessary to furthering my career. Surely I have that choice?

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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Hugh Bosh » Thu Apr 19 2012, 20:48

Gator wrote:Surely I have that choice?


Are you kidding? No you do not have that choice. )c/ For the slow learners in the industry you can not lawfully be paid less than the national award.

I'm happy for you that you have the financial means which enable you not to worry about your wage - but that doesn't mean you should undercut Joe Bloggs who does have to worry about it.

Sorry Gator but your scenario is also a pathetic excuse for selfish, unlawful and unethical practices
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby null » Thu Apr 19 2012, 21:45

OMG, this is a joke, surely.

AWARD = LAW

A debate on changing the law is one thing but a debate in whether to break the law is quite another.

Dare I suggest that those companies that operate in breach of this particular piece of legislation are those more likely to have little regard for other rules that inconvenience them, such as Flight and Duty times, aircraft MTOW etc etc

Reading some of the posts as people justify BREAKING THE LAW is mind boggling.

Maybe we should have a thread called "Laws I think are stupid so count me out". I for one think 40 km in a school zone is outrageous, what's the point of that. That law really is designed for the 19 year old P platers in a clapped out ute but I have a new car and the reflexes of a helicopter pilot so I will be sticking to my 70 km/h.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby ianski » Fri Apr 20 2012, 00:32

Quick question, null. Have you ever gone over the marked speed limit on the roads? Even if only 2kph over?

Some laws are there for a good reason, but that still doesn't stop some people from breaking them. It might even be for a *good reason*.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby bellslapper » Fri Apr 20 2012, 01:13

:oops:
Last edited by bellslapper on Fri Apr 20 2012, 05:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Bootsmadeforwalking » Fri Apr 20 2012, 01:19

Speed doesn't kill people! Irresponsibility kills people!!!!!

BUT the sign says 40 km/h and the award says min $.

"Change what you can, accept what you can't"
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby ianski » Fri Apr 20 2012, 01:38

Here's an awesome one for null.

My boss got booked for driving at 50kph through a 40kph school zone (50kph zone outside of school hours). It was a Pupil Free Day and his kids normally went to that school, so he knew they had the day was off. No students were in sight, and hardly any teachers were around.

He argued that he was obeying the law doing 50kph as it was outside of "school hours". The cop said that pupil free days were still considered "school hours" and the speed limit was for the safety of the school-goers. Again, there were no children in sight, no teachers in sight and the roads were clear of all traffic. 10kph over the speed limit is a pretty big speeding fine to get.

The award, to me, is the same thing. It's unrealistic to expect that you could apply something like that to all employees, for all businesses, in all parts of Australia. Yet, that's what you're asking for.
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby chaff » Fri Apr 20 2012, 02:29

ianski wrote:The award, to me, is the same thing. It's unrealistic to expect that you could apply something like that to all employees, for all businesses, in all parts of Australia. Yet, that's what you're asking for.


how does one go about reporting just utter non sense?
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby ianski » Fri Apr 20 2012, 02:48

By posting your opinion in reply!
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Re: First year pilot and the award

Postby Worzel_Gummidge » Fri Apr 20 2012, 02:49

Dare I suggest that those companies that operate in breach of this particular piece of legislation are those more likely to have little regard for other rules that inconvenience them, such as Flight and Duty times, aircraft MTOW etc etc


In over 20 years in GA in Australia I'm yet to work for a company that doesn't bend those rules occasionally, particularly FDT's. It's not right, it's just the way it is! Much like people who do 120km/h on the freeway instead of the maximum 110km/h. "I'm only a little bit over officer"! It only becomes an issue of you get caught and in GA that usually only happens if there's an accident of some sort.

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