Responses to Pay and Conditions

[bellslapper]

Wocawoca hit this link you will find Jayrow are on the Helicopter general award http://www.workplace.gov.au/ims/FED/Awa ... TOC_EX.htm

[Desertflyer]

Anyone got any ballpark figures on ground/theory instructors with a bit of ferrying/scenic work??

[helothere]

This should give you a bit of an idea...

http://www.wagenet.gov.au/wagenet/Search/view.asp?docid=274437&query=&page=28&quickview=Y

[PlankBlender]

Hi fellow BSers, who can share info on first jobs, is it getting any easier getting the first gig, can you share experiences/stories?

There has been some talk lately about more experienced pilots moving up/on quicker, and this leading to more opportunities for first-timers.

I observed a bit of movement among instructors in the last six months, as it's the second job for a lot of them, that might indicate first jobs are moving quicker.

Thanks everyone for sharing!

[dmfoqs]

Aviation Adventures start at $150 per day for a bare licenced pilot plus super and days in liew if they work public holidays. They may have a licence but most bare licenced pilots need alot of nuturing and teaching how to be a great tourist pilot. Once they reach 500 to 700 hours it goes up to $180 per day. Most of the bigger GA companies wont touch a bare licenced pilot. It costs me higher premiums and excesses to employ low time pilots . I have seen many larger companies ignore low time pilots, waiting until I train them then poach them of me when they have over 500 hours. These companies can afford to put on "apprentise" pilots but choose not to. WHY. I still get pilots each week that come and see me offering to work for nothing.

[dmfoqs]

and the following comment relates to tourism and GA. I have seen businesses start up and soon after fail by pilots where Daddy buys them a helicopter, cause they cant get a job . They fly around under cutting the other serious operators, then for some strange reason go broke or find it all to hard. I know we can not stop this but it makes it very hard to keep a business going in competition with these operators.

[DoorsOff]

These companies can afford to put on "apprentise" pilots but choose not to. WHY. I still get pilots each week that come and see me offering to work for nothing

i hear you PJ - is it just about the money? or does someone out there really give a damm.
Every one want's to catch the Big Snapper on a charter, but you need small bait in the first place.
Low hour guys who have put the wii controller down and have gone out and busted a gutt to get their CPL(H) only to find that "sorry no one will hire or insure a newby", go get some hours and we'll talk. companies who are prepared to invest in low hour guys may infact have a better future than those who don't.

why don't companies offer a signed contracted return of service, that way everyone can benifit??

ps:"i would like my daddy to buy me a helicopter"

My 2 Nuts Worth - RoTor

[longline]

when i was mustering i started on $500p/w (no hrly rate) and ended up on$100p/h once i was considered experienced by the owner and station managers

when i started charter (turbine) i was on $750p/w .......and thats what i ended up on when i left 18 months later (pay rises weren't a big thing in the company!)

Any disaster relief (fire or flood) in s/e turb you should be on at least $400per day +$100/hr once your blades have been turning for more than 3 hrs (if your a contractor)

When long lining in asia we were on $10K a month (tax free)...but we earnt every cent!

Really how much you get paid depends on what you bring to the table for the company...your reputation and how well you can negotiate.

[dmfoqs]

To those people that have contacted me and accused me of exploiting pilots. I am in business to make money. There have been many weeks that my pilots take home more than I do. Over the past 11 years I have been involved in tourism and sent I in a proposal to the AFAP over 2 years ago to implement a wage agreement for pilots who have under 500 hours. The general proposal was to give incentives to companies to employ and PAY pilots a sliding scale from a bare licence to 500 hours of experience. Like an apprentice.
I did not receive a reply.
I have employed over 12 pilots in the past 10 years and paid every pilot. I myself worked for over 1 year every weekend for a large Sydney based training/charter company , and was not paid one cent. What it did give me was enough hours to join Lloyd helicopters and soon after I was in the left hand seat of a S-76 as a co-pilot with just over 200 hours.
In my 20 years of aviation in the early years, I have seen the largest companies in Australia Lloyds, Bristows, Helicopters Australia, Jayrows, Heli Resourses to name a few undercut each other to win contracts, to the bemusements of the companies putting out the contracts. There are only two area to cut costs maintenance and pilots wages, back then guess who lost.
I work at ESSO for while with Lloyds, why did Esso implement a co pilot contract?. For safety reasons.
My wage back then was so low that I was entitled to welfare from the government. So I sent in a work place agreement to the AFAP and had the co pilots wage increased by 25%, overnight.
While working for Helicopters Australia in Dampier I made a presentation to commissioner Palmer in Karratha to have the marine pilots award changed from the onshore award to the offshore award, with the assistance of the Jayrow pilots. I lost my job over this but I believed in what I did. My point I believe in this industry but a bare licensed/ low time pilot needs educating, needs nurturing, needs guidance , needs to be given flights that they can handle and are equal to their experience level. At $42,000 a year it aint going to happen. There are not many companies around that pay what I believe is a fair wage to low time pilots. Most don’t pay much at all...........
So to all those that take offence to what im stating ring around and find out what many companies are paying if anything to low time pilots and what conditions they are living in and what pressure is placed on them to fly over weight passengers. The stories from many low time inexperienced pilots I hear worries me immensely.

[papillons]

Good post pj.

[buzz buzz]

Hi All ,It would to get some help please . I am looking at two jobs one for 2 days a week as a line pilot on ato work , And the second at a training school for 3 days a week . I feel like this would be a good mix and I would just like to find out what sort of day rates these sort of jobs command around the traps
Thank you all
3,500 hours rotary

[Hugh Bosh]

Is it that time of year again?

Anyone employed as a pilot is entitled to a fair (well, at least the award - whether that is fair or not is open to debate) wage.

Plenty of debate is contained here http://www.bladeslapper.com/content/bb/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2694&st=0&sk=t&sd=a if you're interested.

Anyone not paying the minimum wage can expect to pay back-pay if FWA catches them at it - see here: http://www.bladeslapper.com/content/bb/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2694&st=0&sk=t&sd=a.

If you're paying the award wage, you're not breaking the law. If not, by definition, it's exploitation and also against the law.

[dmfoqs]

Hugh Bosh in reply all I have to say is ring around and ask every GA, tourism, marine pilot, offshore etc every australian helicopter company .
1 do you employ bare licenced pilots ?
2 if so find out how many of these companies pay their low time pilots and what is the rate, conditions , agreement
3 if they dont ask them why......
You will find that the majority of helicopter companies wont touch a bare licenced pilot,and give him/her any flying, most of these companies are well established, they have the financial backing , training staff, infrastructure to put them on and give them a start into the industry. But they dont. They wait until companies like mine train them up and give them the hours they need to then apply. It cost me time to teach these pilots flying skills, business skills, office skills, tourism skills. I have a very small tourism business, but I believe in the industry and its future. It costs me extra insurance to employee low time pilots and a higher excess.
I have 2 very large companies in the same area as where im based, and yes they do pay the award, but guess what they dont employ bare or low time pilots, they wait until I have trained them, given them the hours then they offer them a job. So if you want to help this industry and low time pilots then ring up all the companies in Australia that dont employ low time pilots and get up them.

[Eric Hunt]

PJ, I am puzzled why they would jump out of your company to go to some place that pays the award.

Unless....

[froginasock]

PJ .. I know one of the companies in your area does employ bare pilots (if not both in different locations of their operations) ... and everyone is entitled to move on to another employer. That's how we all gained experience .. just as those people who you suggest are 'poached' when experienced will move on to bigger things from where they are now ..and do it again and again until they are where they want to be in the industry.

I agree that entry jobs could be established by lagrer operators ...BUT ... you can't just create jobs so that everyone with a licence gets employed. If that were the case even more people would get their licenece .. then what .. invent more jobs for them? Part of the problem is throughput. If you have the money, motivation and skill .. anyone can get a licence. As an industry we don't say "there are 20 entry level jobs this year, so we'll only train 20 people".

Everyone goes into the profession eyes wide open and can easily research the industry and the avaiability of jobs before spending a cent. Operators should pay the award (minimum) but not feel guilty about not employing everyone who turns up with a resume.

Frog

[dmfoqs]

Frog. i do stand corrected. A larger company in the area did employ a low time pilot and send her up to the Whitsundays she had hardly any initiation training in the area, no followup assistance. No guidance, no one to discuss concerns and questions to , She was a mess and guess where she got her support, guidance , assistance from , me and my pilots, even though she worked for another company.
The other company only last week a pilot came through and spoke to me telling me they do not employ bare licenced pilots. So what can I say.

[dmfoqs]

Eric hunt, no my pilots dont jump ship. I use KH-4s and R-44s. 90% of the pilots that have worked for me I have assisted to find other jobs, most pilots stay atleast 18 months to 2 years. The guys across the road use R-44s and turbines, so as most pilots want turbine time it is a career path move for them.

[CYHeli]

pj, good on you for taking on low hour pilots.
As a low hour pilot I heard the same arguments used by my then Chief Pilot.
I understood what he was saying, but I didn't agree with it and we had some good discussions over pay.
He even offered to pay me the award if I helped him choose which pilots to let go because he couldn't afford to pay all of us the award.

At the same time he taught me heaps about how to fly safely and how to do an 8 minute joy flight in 8 minutes. I still brag about having flown there because it was a spectacular place to fly and I still recommend it as a location for tourists to hit the air.

I'm not in the position to give newbies a go, I don't hire/fire. But when asked to mentor a newbie I give them everything that I've got.

Some of us understand why guys in your position under pay the staff (that's how we describe what you do) and our simple answer is just raise the cost to the consumer. It has been known to work in most other industry, goods or service. But of course (I assume) your answer is, "If I charge them more they might stop coming and it's not a risk I am prepared to take." I also understand that.

If your answer is that they are not worth it, then can I remind you of your work with MPT and off-shore (co-pilots). These parts of the industry are now paid for the work they do and the level that they fly at. Within these parts of the industry there is training and checking, endorsements, NVFR rating, route checks, etc. That all costs the company (often twin turbine costs), but of course they just have a more secure income to fund that. Tourism, as we all know, has difficulty due to lack of income in providing that same level of mentoring and training for the newbie. Trouble is they need it more than anyone. I know that you provide this, as did my first CP and you should. Good Chief Pilots do, but that is not everything as you proved when you fought so hard for wages for MPT and off shore co-pilots (25% overnight!)

It's a pity that the AFAP didn't get back to you, but I wonder if you also send in a proposal to work choices when they did their last round of pay discussions? But they probably treated your ideas with contempt. That would be my guess if they couldn't even get back to you.

[Eric Hunt]

I was CP of a charter company for 11 years, and in that time we took on plenty of pilots, but because of the contracts we held which specified that the pilots had to have over 1000 hrs, we rarely took on anybody with less that 800 hours - we couldn't use them.

The few we did employ worked their way up and got onto the contracts, and then after a few years moved on to twins and IFR and greater glory than a B206 or 206L or AS350 or EC120. Bit of a shame, they missed out on the A109, but that was their choice at the time.

[dmfoqs]

Here is an idea. Every heli pilot with under 500 hours please state
optional who you work for
how long you have had a licence
your hours
how long it took to get a job
how long has it taken to get your hours
what conditions you work under
what pay you get , if any
how many hours / days you work per week
what other duties you have to do

I am asking this for two reasons. 1 to show the industry what bare licenced pilots have to do to get hours and 2 to try and implement a pay system that works. You can pm me with who you work for so nothing comes back on you.....