Responses to Pay and Conditions

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
dmfoqs
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Sep 25 2011, 04:40

Gee frogin a sock . Have you gone quiet. How can I say it any simplier. Their a plenty of companies that could employ bare licenced pilots like I do. But they dont, why cause they dont want the problems of dealing with newbies. They dont want to put the effort into guiding, helping, mentoring these pilots, and they dont want to pay the excesses I do. So once again go and get up them not me. Im probably going to put on another pilot soon. i dont have the work flying to give him a full time flying job. He will be also working in the office as well as flying. Once again I dont see many other companies employing bare licenced pilots and paying them like I do. As for myself I am everything from chief pilot, ops manager, transport, hanger rat, toilet cleaner, general dogs body jobs. I dont expect anyone that works for me to do anything that I dont do.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby SuperF » Sun Sep 25 2011, 10:50

hi guys, just another way of looking at the payment of low time guys. What do you call a hanger rat that MIGHT get 10-100 hrs of flying in a year, they are not hired as a pilot, as they are the general dogs body, slave, fuel boy, ground crew, ticket seller, loader, etc. now if they get to log any time at all, do they have to be paid as a pilot?

if employed as a pilot, then maybe a tougher sell to not pay award, but hired in another position, who can learn the ropes, and maybe get a bit of time up, then why pay as a pilot? i don't agree with underpaying, however we are lucky over here in NZ, or unlucky depending on which way you look at it, as we simply have a minimum hrly rate, not sure what it is, $12-$13/hr, with no difference what the job is, and pretty much they let the market control it. thats why new pilots get paid so little over here, they are prepared to work for nothing, there are so many of them out there, and too many guys prepared to pay nothing. and i do mean nothing, as in hang around here all day, sweep the hanger, clean the helicopter and i might let you fly..... some guys even pay for the priviledge of a cadetship, where they learn how to be a more effective pilot, by being a ground crewman, and maybe getting some flying.

great way to cut your costs as an operator, but some of us just can't do it.

funny thing, we will never take on a junior pilot for another position within our company, as while it might be good experience for them, we know that they will end up getting frustrated NOT flying, so will eventually leave, probably just when they get really good at the other job, then you have to go through all the recruitment and training bullsh1t again. too much trouble, if you want a loader, find someone thats wants to be a loader, etc.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Sep 25 2011, 23:42

Here is an idea. Every heli pilot with under 500 hours please state
optional who you work for
how long you have had a licence
your hours
how long it took to get a job
how long has it taken to get your hours
what conditions you work under
what pay you get , if any
how many hours / days you work per week
what other duties you have to do

I am asking this for two reasons. 1 to show the industry what bare licenced pilots have to do to get hours and 2 to try and implement a pay system that works. You can pm me with who you work for so nothing comes back on you.....
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby froginasock » Mon Sep 26 2011, 00:30

pj wrote:Gee frogin a sock . Have you gone quiet. How can I say it any simplier.


Sorry pj ... but I don't spend my days trawling this site. I come on from time to time to see what is going on. I wasn't intending to start a slagging match, just make an observation. That aside, by making enquiries (the phone is a marvelous thing) - one company in your area just employed a newbie to learn the ropes an build into the industry through an operational role and some flying (paid award + I believe). From what I was told they will also be offering newbie positions at the Shute operation (award) . The Island ops need more experience apparently - however I was realiably informed a good newbie may expect to progress there.

Not sure what the other comany is doing - couldn't really get an answer on my questions, but they appear to be having less influence up that way at this point in time.

Before slagging off all operators in YOUR area (and me in your post above). Why not give them a call/talk to them as there seem to be many changes going on up your way. Suggest people reading this thread do what I did - ring the companiesTHEMSELVES to find out what is going on, don't make what people say on this your sole reference.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Mon Sep 26 2011, 02:18

Frog. If the guys up the road are putting on a bare licenced pilot that is excellent. Up until 2 weeks ago i have had at least 4 pilots come and see me stating that the guys up the road wont employ bare licenced pilots. Perhaps this forum has made them re think their stance. My whole point to all of this is that there are many companies that could employ bare licenced pilots :D but dont, and If I embarass some into doing it then thats good. :roll: :roll:
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby Billy Hill » Mon Sep 26 2011, 03:21

PJ,

A question for you out of interest to help a newbie. What sort of excess increase does an operator have to wear to allow a bare licenced pilot to fly (ballpark figure, not asking for your secrets)

What ballpark figure is insurance for say a 44 on a tourist operation? I think this will shock me :? I have so much to learn.

Good on you for giving some new guys a go. $150/day and mentoring included sounds good to me.

BH
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby froginasock » Mon Sep 26 2011, 03:38

pj wrote:. Perhaps this forum has made them re think their stance. . :roll: :roll:


I doubt this forum had anything to do with it.

I'm sure it's just part of the change of ownership up there and nothing to do with you ... incidentally the other company up there put's newbies on in other areas of their business, just not the one near you.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Tue Sep 27 2011, 00:25

froginasock. Fantastic the more low time pilots that get employeed and given a start into this industry and fly and get paid is a great thing. What s#!t me about this industry is that I get to speak to alot of low time pilots, some very young, some trapsing around with their family in tow looking for a start. What s#!t me is the stories I hear about some of the pay or lack of it that low time pilots have to accept. Or the hours they have to work to get the job and keep it. What s#!t me is that there are plenty of companies that could employ low time pilots but dont. Before QLD was flooded and the first half of this year disappeared, my pilots were flying around 500 to 600 hours a year. I am a small operator, but I believe I have exceeded my fair share of employing low time pilots. So go and get up all those companies that dont employ low time pilots that could, or those that dont pay low time pilots , or make them exceed flight and duty or weight limitations.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Wed Sep 28 2011, 00:45

Life must be good for low time / under paid pilots I have had 2 responses regarding wages , conditions , time to get a job and what a pilot needs to do to keep his job.
Low time pilots/under paid pilots, if you dont stick up for yourself and what is fair, who will....
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby Hugh Bosh » Thu Sep 29 2011, 12:20

pj wrote:Low time pilots/under paid pilots, if you dont stick up for yourself and what is fair, who will....


Fair Work Australia
Email: inquiries@fwa.gov.au
Telephone: 1300 799 675
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froginasock
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby froginasock » Thu Sep 29 2011, 22:50

Hugh Bosh wrote:
pj wrote:Low time pilots/under paid pilots, if you dont stick up for yourself and what is fair, who will....


Fair Work Australia
Email: inquiries@fwa.gov.au
Telephone: 1300 799 675


Exactly Mr Bosh. Check the award rates (it's not mega-bucks but you will never know if you are underpaid if you don't). Look it up and use the details above if you think you are getting ripped.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Fri Sep 30 2011, 00:17

Hugh and froggy. I have had 13 responces from bare/low time pilots and two over 1000 hour pilots. Compared to some I pay 150 times the amount they are getting paid, some 3 times the amount they pay and some 30 % more . I have not had any responce from anyone who as a bare licenced pilot that is getting paid the award or above.
Any pilots that are getting the award as a bare licenced pilots please contact me............... :roll:
Some of the responces and conversation I have had , pilots are working exceedingly long days, exceeding weight limitations and some of the pilots I have spoken to are working 7 days a week. Others arent doing any flying.
The system is not working I am trying to improve it so if you want to help this industry then support me, ring up those companies that dont pay their pilots or pay a small amount. Ring up those companies that could but dont employ low time pilots.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby Rusky » Fri Sep 30 2011, 01:58

Hate to say it, but the situation where low time pilots get zero income or very little means the government needs to step in and regulate the industry Self regulation will not work and the award safety net is simply not enough.
Many issues are at play here and it’s not unique to just the Australian helicopter industry either. I will canvass but a few.
 
So consider this.
1)      The free market permits companies to open and operate, training people who wish to part with their money to become a CPL(H). Nothing wrong with that, that’s just business! It’s a competitive market place and ‘generally’ speaking, the cost to get a CPL(H) is pretty much uniform across the country. The problem here is, the free market does not price in the fact  that there are many more CPL(H) graduates than there are positions available for them to fill at this point in time.
2)      I would argue  that the supply of CPL(H) graduates has exceeded the demand for positions available consistently over the last two decades. This has the effect of driving down the equilibrium price (wages received). This outcome is obvious when you see a pilot and the skill required to undertake this endeavour getting such a pittance for being a helicopter pilot! Yes we do it for the love and may get ‘love money’ (the award) in exchange!
3)      The award is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the equilibrium price where the supply meets the demand for CPL(H) pilots. It is set by government bureaucrats and policy makers who like us, don’t necessarily have complete information about the state of the industry and the numbers within at this point in time.
4)      Individuals who elect to work for ‘ love money’ or worse add to the supply pool of pilots further driving wages down. It’s a situation that WILL NOT change until the government steps in.
 
What should happen.
1)      The government needs to set up a training regime such as an apprenticeship structure for helicopter pilots which closely matches the industries requirements for pilots resources. So supply equals demand more often than not. Naturally, the government will have to work closely will all training companies to effect this outcome. This would cause some pain for some companies and possibly even force some companies to close, but the industry would become less economically distorted as a consequence.
2)      The award needs to be reviewed, fully enforced and better matched to the skills required of a helicopter pilot as he/she gains experience over time. From zero hours post graduate onwards.
3)      Dare I say it also and I don’t want to really, but EVERY CPL(H) pilot or maybe just those with less than 1000 hours say should belong to a UNION.
 
If all the above happened you would probably see fewer helicopter companies in Australia BUT more pilots who are adequately compensated through a fairer system providing a fairer redistribution of wealth thereby  providing suitable incentives to all concerned to continue in this industry.
 
I am tabling thoughts here, not necessarily the answer. I don't profess to having all the answers. But I think it’s in EVERY pilots best interest to get ‘on-board’ this cause as it were, irrespective of if you have passed the low-hours-poor-pay-hurdle, as this also indirectly affects your income up the line and the inefficient industry you reside in as a whole.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby pohm1 » Fri Sep 30 2011, 02:54

Or do what some have done recently, suck it up for as long as it takes to get some experience, then talk to FWA when you've secured your next (award paying) gig!

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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby helimusterer » Fri Sep 30 2011, 03:14

I have followed this thread with some interest, and agree that changes to the industry need to happen in regards to a fair payment system that is enforced for pilots, and especially low hour pilots who have little to bring to the table.

To answer PJ's earlier post,
first job was paid at 1/3 of the award rate.
hours ranged from 500 - 600 per year
conditions where you lived on site so food and keep where included, however you where often required to work at other locations so a swag was your home most of the time.
After a year's experience the offer increased to 2/3rds of the award rate, and continued to improve as more experience was gathered.
Machines where badly maintained, flown well over hrs, with the usual statement when the 100hrly rolled around due being "Just take another bottle of oil with you and top her up every day, she'll be right for another 100hrs or so".

I'd say this is a fairly normal sequence of events for a helicopter mustering pilot starting out, the companies that pay award do not (all the ones I have come across anyway) employ pilots with less than 500hrs.


PJ what are you proposing to do? I think its generally accepted that a new pilot brings very little to the table in terms of usefulness straight out of CPL training, and requires a great deal of time and effort invested in them before they become an asset to the business. How are you suggesting we get around that problem? Most employers who could employ low hr pilots don't because they simply don't have the time to spend on them, so a pilot that has already had 500hrs experience is much more valuable to them as they don't require the hand holding. I like the suggestion of the sliding pay scale as per experience, that is probably the best option I have heard so far, and is a much fairer system for experienced pilots as well, by recognizing their rising skill level. The biggest problem with this industry is the total lack of employers and industry wanting to work together, everyone has their own agenda and the few people who try to make changes are often defeated by the lack of co-operation between industry members. How would you overcome this issue PJ? I am inclined to agree with the post above that the industry needs regulation outside its control, as we have demonstrated an inability to be able to effectively manage it ourselves so far. What changes would you propose PJ and how would you go about getting the industry as a whole to accept them? And how would they be enforced? At the moment it is law to pay Award wages, however many don't, and very few are ever prosecuted and made to do so, if Fair Work Australia can't keep on top of it then how will the industry makes sure it does?
Look forward to your replies.
Helimusterer.
Everyone has to make mistakes to learn, but If you don't learn from your mistakes you may not live to learn next time round.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Oct 2 2011, 05:38

Helimusterer. I have had some extremely interesting responces re bare /low time pilots. I will reply in a few days. In short i am very concerned about our industry and its lack of structured progression.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby Hugh Bosh » Sat Oct 8 2011, 00:10

pj wrote:I have had some extremely interesting responces re bare /low time pilots. I will reply in a few days. In short i am very concerned about our industry and its lack of structured progression.


Be interested to hear about your responses PJ.

HB
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Oct 9 2011, 02:57

So far I have had over 20 responses. I am sure there are some pilots that started off getting the award with a bare licence...., but so far I have not had one person contact me or in my 20 years in this business can I recall meeting a pilot that started off on the award or above.
I commend any company that employees bare/low time pilots. The ones that don’t should be asked why they don’t….My business is situated in the Whitsundays, i am not in the cities or near any major township or large training school. So i am sure that operators nearer to larger towns would get more pilots contacting them /calling in than i.
Here is our industries problem.
From my results so far 90% of the bare /low time pilots said they did or would work for nothing or a small amount, just to get a job.
Over 60 % said they drove around the country. None of the pilots under 300 hours said they were getting any where near the award, and some over 1000 hour pilots said they were still not getting the award.
An operator spoke to me a while ago and said that he did not pay the award, he would employ more pilots than he needed, give them training/experience and then they would move on.
Many pilots are concerned about exceeding F&D and weight limitations, and aircraft serviceability.
Many pilots believe they are not getting adequate assistance / guidance with consideration to their experience level.
I rang around a few companies saying I had just got my licence to see if they would give me a start. Many said no, I would need at least 500+ hours. I can see why it is so hard for a bare licensed pilot to get a start.
I am not saying I have any great answers at present. I also realize that there are people that do their licence and never get a job flying.
Many pilots said they ended up “hanging” around helping out a helicopter business until they got a start- persistence.
There is a vast gap between supply and demand.
In relation to tourism in Queensland, from my point of view the area I work in has declined by 5 helicopters in the past 2 years.
I will see if I receive any further details from pilots this week
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby froginasock » Mon Oct 10 2011, 23:35

pj wrote:So far I have had over 20 responses. I am sure there are some pilots that started off getting the award with a bare licence...., but so far I have not had one person contact me or in my 20 years in this business can I recall meeting a pilot that started off on the award or above.

I will see if I receive any further details from pilots this week


I contacted you (by PM) and said that I started on the award+ in 2005 ... and said that we have TWO new starters on award++ here (1 casual and one permanent). I also said that I know of one other (in the whitsundays) on award .. and I have recently found one other in our area that started two years ago on award+ .. and another (who is a friend on the sunny coast) on the award ..!!!! .. all new starters!!

Perhaps people happily employed don't visit this site .. or if they do don't care to comment. As Hugh B mentioned previously ... Fair Work Aust is the place to voice concerns.

The other items you mention Re: pressure, W&B, overloading , F&D etc can be addressed via CASA (they have anonamous reporting available and are happy to help with any safety related issues.

PJ - If you are so concerned - forward the info you have collected to CASA and Fair Work Aust get them working on operators who chose not to follow industrial and Air Law.
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Re: Responses to Pay and Conditions

Postby dmfoqs » Tue Oct 11 2011, 00:31

Frog not that your input is relevant to the bigger problem here, or is relavent to the whole point of this, anyway in your pm to me you stated a wage you were getting, not that you were recieving the award when you started in 2005. You are one of the lucky ones
I am sure that there is a very small number of pilots that have started on or above the award, and in my experience I believe that it would be less than 15%. So bare licenced pilots please contact me with details of your pay and conditions above the award when you started....
As i stated I have not met any one who started on the award. So my reason behind this is for the other 85 % of pilots.
You may have had a good start the majority dont.
I get phone calls from pilots each week wanting a start or wanting to leave where they are working . The system for bare licenced pilots is not working this is the reason behind all of this.
Between the blog I started and this one there is over 17000 views. I do not see many other companies making an effort to improve conditions for bare licenced pilots.

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