AWA`s not good news.

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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paymaster
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AWA`s not good news.

Postby paymaster » Sun Feb 4 2007, 03:39

The Governments Workplace Agreements mean lots of changes for most workers in Australia. I urge you to find out more and understand the implications of the changes to see if your getting a fair deal.

I will try and get some of the information from the AFAP to post here, or if anyone has a digital copy of there recent magazine for all to view it would be important reading.

If you are new to the industry and think it doesnt affect you then remember, once you lose the EBA,s and Awards it will be hard to get any of it back.

A few Quotes from Air Pilot AFAP Magazine.

Unfair Dismissal Taken away

If you are sacked because of a conflict with a senior, a false allegation, an unfounded complaint by a customer/ passenger, personality conflict, an honest mistake, a human error etc you have no rights under the work laws to challenge that decision.


Operational reasons

It is now lawful to sack a worker for `operational reasons` no excuse needed. If you are sacked unlawfully you will have to take action through the courts, With costs starting at $30000 that is out of reach for most Pilots and families.


These are just a few of the changes, there are heaps of them.
Last edited by paymaster on Thu May 17 2007, 23:44, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby hand in pants » Sun Feb 4 2007, 22:39

As a past employer, I'm glad these new conditions exist, no more s#!t to go through if you want to flick an employee who is not right for the job, who is distracting or distructive. I've had to put up with people who weren't worth feeding, let alone paying, because you couldn't say "you're not doing your job, you're out". Now the bludgers can be flicked without problem.
As far as pay negotiations go, if you can't sit down and get yourself a fair pay deal with your boss, either you are not worth it or you didn't do a good enough job at the interview.
Unions have always been good at strong arm tactics. All they want is strike action to force an employer to pay more than the job is worth or he goes out of buisness. The old "Pilot Strike", that was a great idea of the unions. Cost lots of jobs, companies fell over, families destroyed, entitlements lost. Bet the union bosses never missed a pay packet or a nights sleep.
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Postby six-three Bravo » Mon Feb 5 2007, 00:59

Whats Rights?

Pilots under a 1000 hours are the most exploited members of the Australian workforce. Work 10 -12 hour days for as Little as $25. Work 11 hours in a hanger doing the LAME job for him for nothing, because "you have to get to know your aircraft".

Works 7 sevens a week for months at a time without a day off even though it is illegal because "if you don't like there are plenty of other heli pilots out there looking for a start, so you can pi** off!". And for "Christ sake don't write any faults on the maintenance release because CASA will ground the machine".

Yah, Yah all you high time pilots had to go through the same system. It builts character!

Bullsh*t!! it is just wrong and its dangerous. I'm sick of people justifying exploitation of low time pilots rights (which are non existence).

I know that some of us chose to pursue this career path and it can be said it sorts out the men for the boys but it is still wrong. I'm sure if you are an operator exploiting low time pilots you will not agree. That does not make it right.

I believe that serious reform of the industry is necessary with introduction of more co - pilots positions and mentoring by senior pilots. I have made my views about this know before and everyone says its not financially viable and not practicable but if the regulator made it compulsory then industry would have to adjust.

The military system of mentoring low time pilots should be used as a model.

AWA's mean nothing to low time pilots, because we will sell our souls to get our first start.

But I still love flying and has anyone got a start for me? PLEASE!!!!!!
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Postby Eric Hunt » Mon Feb 5 2007, 02:08

So, 63B, what sort of jobs do you see being suitable for CASA to make carrying a copilot compulsory?

Aerial photography in an R22? Can't carry a camera and take pix when the duals are installed, and anyway, the copilot is meant to be involved in the flying, not the aerial work.
ANYTHING in an R22?? These little beasts are struggling in the mustering environment and often come to grief for lack of power, with only one on board.

Power line surveys in a B206? Already got a pilot, an inspector in the front seat, and an observer behind him, plus fuel for 2.5 hours - you can't even hover next to a pole for the first half hour. Shove a cojo in, and the primary purpose of the flight, having an inspector look carefully at every pole, is stopped because the inspector isn't in the front seat.

Tourist flights? What operator wants one less paying passenger? A lot are based on having every seat full to make a profit.

And scenics are often based on a B206 with 2 couples on board - you have to decide which person to leave behind, and then fly a second sortie to ensure the customers are happy. Ask the R44 operators about this problem.

Machines big enough to carry a cojo perhaps already do so.

Don't hold your breath waiting for CASA to mandate something like this, you will go awfully blue. Even if it was a good idea, which it isn't.
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Postby hand in pants » Mon Feb 5 2007, 03:47

63b,
Get a job as a co-pilot. Stop complaining about pilots who are keen and willing to do the hard yards.
This industry is mostly single engine machines, therefore no need for a second pilot as has been stated a number of times.
I doubt there are many who work the hours and days you list, if there is, name a few companies that are exploiting you poor low hour pilots.
Join the military if they are so good. Spend 20 years in green and end up with 3 or 4 thousand hours. I did 4000 hours in my first 6 years as a commercial pilot. Being "exploited", no way, while ever I gained hours it was a question as to who exploited who.
I can't see you getting far in the industry if you're trying to change it and you can't get a start in it. Wait until you have actually experienced what goes on first hand, then come up with a better idea than sticking co-pilots in 22's.
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Postby six-three Bravo » Mon Feb 5 2007, 04:42

Hand in Pants,

I have and I'm experiencing it first hand. I could list the companies who are exploiting low time pilots but it would serve no purpose because it so widespread, in the top end especially. And if I did I would never get a another job in the industry.

If you talk to any rationale person and explain to them that if you spend $50K -$100K, then initially work for nothing, then for a few hundred dollars a week for a couple of years and then if you really make the big time you can earn perhaps $45K a year after 4-5 years of doing the hard yards, most rationale people think this is unreasonable but then again most of us are not rationale.

Exploitation is exploitation. It does not make it right.

I have worked 7 days a week for months on end and know other pilots who were in the same predictment. Even though we have to accept it, it doesn't mean we have to like or agree with it.

I could winge and complain but I wont because I will go out and get my own flying. My succcess is totally dependent on me and me alone. And yes maybe I will get that co -pilot job.

I would like to point out that our industry is way under paid for the commitment, training and responsibiltiy it entails. I realise it is supply and demand dictates the conditions, but this does not excuse exploitation.

I went from earning an average $300 a week flying to earning $200K a year overseas in a corporate position . so it is hard to contemplate going back to a few hundred dollars a week.

In my opinion, for the high calibre of person generally flying R22's to B412's compared to the rest of the corporate world, helicopter pilots are very unpaid for the responsibility they have.

I know plenty of pilots who are 35+ who have given up flying because it was all to hard. It is not because they couldn't handle the hard yards its because they have a wife, children and a mortgage and a few hundred dollars a week just won't cut it.

There are plenty of flying schools who don't honestly brief potential students to the reality of the job propects in the helicopter industry because they want their money.

Well I know, you probably thinking "63B if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitten". Well I not getting out of kitten and yes I can handle the heat, however that does not prevent me from voicing my opinion about the state of industry and what i consider is wrong with it.

the purpose of this forum is to stimulate debate and examine we are heading as an industry and how we can improve things, with regards to safety, employment prospects and conditions.

Cheers

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Postby six-three Bravo » Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:01

regarding the co-pilot expansion programme.


Lets get a little bit fair dinkum. Do you honestly think I was suggesting co -pilots for R22, R44 and B206 ops or even EC 120's for that matter. Me me some credit.

I still think that any EMS work involving a twin could be an opportunity for co - pliot employment. I'm sure you could teach a co-ey to operate a winch. Any police work using AS 350 could use a co - ey, and my favorite, a pilot mentoring programme for fire work in larger machines such as AS 350's where the left hand seat is vacant or B 412's or 212's doing fire work.

If no body challenges the status quo nothing will change.

Cheers

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Postby hand in pants » Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:16

To be honest, I did give you a bit of credit, not much, but some.
Two pilots in a 350 is not going to work. It has been said before, on a fire, you want either fuel in the tank or water in the bucket. Put in the second pilot and you can carry less of them, not a good idea. In the bigger machines, 212, 412, 214 and 205, yeah. But don't forget, the second pilot needs to be endorsed and then paid for the 50 hours the RFS/NPWS want you have on type. You're asking the owner to cover that expense, less income for the owner, again, not a good idea. As for EMS, even in the 412 size machine, it's all about weight. Without a copilot you still have PIC, Aircrewman, Rescue crewman, and at least two medical crew. Add to that all of the role equipment required, fuel and eventually a patient or two, weight becomes an issue. No co-pilot, means more fuel or another patient. EMS is not a training ground.
Not being sarcastic, even though it sounds like it, but if you were on $200K flying corporate overseas, why did you leave and how come you can't get a start here? What kind of work are you after?
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Postby Eric Hunt » Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:25

63B,

Police work doesn't need a copilot. Believe me on this one, I spent 6 years flying them. One pilot, one observer in front, one observer in back. They need very experienced pilots to do the work, there is no room for training up a copilot. Every takeoff was at max gross, and the brinelling in the 206 heads was testimony to this. No OGE performance for a hoist until about an hour of fuel was burnt off, or one observer dumped.

AS350 isn't really a "larger machine", nor is it proportionally any better off for power than a B206, so there is still no weight allowance for talking ballast. The police Squirrels are loaded up as much as the 206s were.

And with fire work, as I have said before, a copilot is taking up 80kg or more of valuable payload. It could be the fuel which gets him back to the fuel dump or allows him to do an extra drop before leaving the area to refuel, it could be the extra 80 litres of water that make the machine more effective by needing fewer drops to do the job. Only machines built to have 2 pilots need a copilot or can effectively carry one.

I operate a medium twin, single pilot IFR, and don't need a copilot. Similar machines carry cojos because the contract requires it, and the operation needs it.

If you are earning $200 kilobucks flying corporate overseas, why are you bitching about wanting to be back home? It would be nice to hear about the success story of somebody going from a $300-a-week 7-day job as a hangar rat, straight into earning cubic dollars as a corporate captain. And if it was a corporate copilot, what the heck were the captains earning? Why did you leave?
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Postby skypig » Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:31

Oh dear, where does one start.

six-three Bravo

Quote
“…..has anyone got a start for me? PLEASE!!!!!!” :oops:

Translation
“Does any operator feel like being exploited by someone who needs to get some experience? :lol: Perhaps you could fly me around reducing your PAY load while I learn :oops: . You better pay me properly and not ask me to do non flying tasks or I’ll feel exploited :x . I’m even be happy to get the experience by myself if you would just supply a paid for, maintained, insured and fuelled machine for me to practice in :wink: . I promise to leave as soon as I have some experience. :D

I know I’m being harsh (again :roll: ) but your attitude comes across as narrow focused, one sided and ignorant. :|

I think we all agree it is difficult for pilots and operators to achieve the remuneration deserved.

Quote
“…..I could winge and complain but I wont…..”

Thank you :roll: :roll: :roll:

My suggestion, keep getting your $200K/year, buy a helicopter and fly for fun. 8) (or start your own aviation company :idea: :? )

Sky "ducking for cover" pig
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Postby hand in pants » Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:37

Piggy,

Nicely put.
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Postby Aunty Tork-Poodle » Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:38

hand in pants wrote:To be honest, I did give you a bit of credit, not much, but some.
Not being sarcastic, even though it sounds like it, but if you were on $200K flying corporate overseas, why did you leave and how come you can't get a start here? What kind of work are you after?


63B didn't say he was flying corporate overseas. Just working corporate overseas.

And I think the mentoring idea he talks about is good in principle.


ATP
Last edited by Aunty Tork-Poodle on Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby hand in pants » Mon Feb 5 2007, 05:46

Good point,

63???
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Postby Eric Hunt » Mon Feb 5 2007, 07:04

Working as an executive? $200,000?

This is a company I want to know about.

They will take somebody from a hangar floor and pay him big bux.
Why would he want to be a copilot?

OK, sharks, circle around, there is blood in the water.
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Postby skypig » Mon Feb 5 2007, 07:23

I’m not a fan of “the system” anymore than most people, but I can’t see, realistically, how else it can work.
Helping in hangers, loading (AG chemicals or joy flight punters) and just hanging around flight operations are forms of mentoring / training.

sky "s the limit" pig 8)
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Rotten

Postby phugoyd » Mon Feb 5 2007, 09:10

I think the rot sets in if you stay beyond 500 hrs with the crappy companies. Lots of companies that pay the award will take you on with 500 hrs but you must be working to get that job a soon as you get your fist job. Most guys lose sight of their goal and get bitter.

As for employers, a two week initial assesment will show a lot about a person, then a 6 month probationary period with a clause that both parties can terminate without reason but after 6 months i believe that you should be paid the right wage and be given the `Award` (if it still exists).

There was always the Verbal Warnings and Written warnings that either pulled an employee into line or removed them from the system. To be able to walk in after some other bloke made up some s#!t story about you and say "sorry johno, on your bike i dont need you any more, and say hi to the wife and kids for me" is bad for a healthy community.

A healthy democratic community looks after all its citizens not just those that have leadership and business qualities.

I think one of the lessons is not to move your whole life to your first job, that way you can leave quickly and not build any bond with the place.

Lets keep this site to personal opinions and not personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

:)
Last edited by phugoyd on Mon Feb 5 2007, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nana yabiznus » Mon Feb 5 2007, 09:28

Quick, everyone run for cover and get out your sarcasm guns! Someones got a new idea :shock:

It seems like some people on here just sit around waiting for someone to post something so that they can shoot them down.

It's easy to criticise but how about using your infinite wisdom to put forward some alternative solutions Sarcasmpig :roll:

Nana :x
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Postby six-three Bravo » Mon Feb 5 2007, 21:00

Well I certainly through the cat amongst the pigeons.

Thank you phogoyd and nana yabiznus for your calm and thoughtful responses.

For a start I never stated I was flying overseas for $200K. I stated I was in a corporate position.
I won't lower myself to personal attacks on some of the commentators on this site.

I simply believe under the current system there is room to expand junior pilot training in the left hand seat as co - pilots in situations that exist today where non pilotos occupy the left hand seat. For example there could be a dual role as co - pilot and crewman (winch) operator on EMS missions eliminating the need for a non pilot in the left hand seat. Or the observer on police missions could be a co - pilot, once again a dual role, flying the less intense parts of the missions like returning to base.

And maybe there are some applications in the civilian world to take something from the military model of helicopter pilot progression. I could be wrong, but once again it just a thought. (Incidentally I did spend 12 years as a grunt in the army doing the real hard yards).

I know these are left wing radical, crazy ideas but it's just a thought.

Now, I think everyone should take a Bex and have a good lie down.

Cheers


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Postby skypig » Mon Feb 5 2007, 23:39

All good thought provoking stuff.

I’ll try and keep the sarcasm gun pointed at the floor. :lol:

What I was trying to point out (in my own offensive way) was that the operators have a view on this too. :D

“For example there could be a dual role as co - pilot and crewman (winch) operator on EMS missions eliminating the need for a non pilot in the left hand seat”

That would be great :idea: , for us pilots :!: , BUT the reality is - that the first choice would always be an experienced professional crewman and the second choice would be training someone to be a professional crewman. Someone who was likely to stay in that position.
All the mutually beneficial training opportunities I can think of seem to be already well known.
8) 8)


Sarcasmpig 8)
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Postby hand in pants » Tue Feb 6 2007, 00:22

Some of the ideas do have warrant. But, it is hard to beat the hanger slave experience. You are "used", but you learn a hell of a lot while helping engineers and doing ferry and maintenance flights. You also learn the cost of flying from an operational point. That leads to a pilot who isn't just there to burn holes in the sky trying to build hours at the operators expence. You might find that all of those "captains" got to where they are now by doing the hanger slave stuff for as long as they could, worked their way up and made something of themselves. Try it, it does work..............

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