Discussion on wages

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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Pegs
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Thu Jan 21 2010, 06:24

Thanks Heliduck thats what I wanted to hear, :wink:
anyone else got some real life examples of wages for mustering pilots in the industry?
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby nzrotors » Thu Jan 21 2010, 22:15

sorry this will seem like a stupid question but what is an AWARD wage....never heard this term here in nz

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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Thu Jan 21 2010, 22:47

nzrotors wrote:sorry this will seem like a stupid question but what is an AWARD wage....never heard this term here in nz

cheers


G-Day NZ, never a dumb question, I never realised that NZ didn't have awards, so learnt something my self.
I'll trymy best to explain it briefly;

Awards are set in place in Oz to provide a set of working conditions and a wage threshold for employees in every profession. The award details what hourly rate/salary/overtime minimum must be paid by employers relevant to your age, experiance, and job description. the award is the minimum that anyone employed in a position should be paid. There are awards from most professions in Oz, and there is also the minimum wage award which you fall under if nothing else fits, they are pretty detailed, if you read back through this post I posted a link to the Oz Pilots award a few pages back.

It is also law to pay employees under their relevant award in Oz now, although some still manage to get around it. :wink:

Anyone else want to add more?
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby nzrotors » Fri Jan 22 2010, 01:27

cheers

we do have minimum wage but its not specific to job or experience
thanks
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby hand in pants » Sat Jan 23 2010, 20:15

Been off line for a while, pegasus, what was the result of you going to the wageline (or appropriate authority) regarding the company only paying $17K a year. You also mentioned you were offered a job as a TA for another company, what were they paying?
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Sat Jan 23 2010, 23:10

hand in pants wrote:Been off line for a while, pegasus, what was the result of you going to the wageline (or appropriate authority) regarding the company only paying $17K a year. You also mentioned you were offered a job as a TA for another company, what were they paying?


HIP, not really anything to go to wageline about since I'm not employed there, however did check on the award with them and they said that ALL operators now have to pay under that award by law as of last year it came into effect. So nothing further really to say is there? As for the TA job that is not paid work, it's time gaining experiance in the shed on days off etc as I can find time to go in there, its not 7 days a week, 1400 hrs a year, you may as well call it work exp I suppose. That's not to say the first company wouldn't have offered me shed work/experiance had i asked, but honestly? I would rather start out with a company that is going to do the right thing by me if I actually end up working there after doing the hard yards on the floor, I have always rode for the brand, so if someone gives me a break and they are offering fair wages (doesn't have to be good wages) and reasonable incentives then as i said I'll fly for that company 7 days a week 365 days a year to support their business, no ifs buts or maybes.

I know we differ greatly in our opinions and I respect yours as your at the other end of the stick being a CP, but 17K really is pretty insulting mate and 22K the yr after is simply extortion, it doesn't offer much incentive for pilots to stick around long term and stay with the company when they get really useful. Surely a few more dollars spent on their pilots wages to retain them in the job a few more years would pay off in the long run rather than constantly having to hire new pilots to fill the gaps left? Of course sometimes people will leave anyhow and sometimes the company is glad to see them go, but maybe in your position you could spread some more light on this subject?

With any luck the exp in the shed might lead to a break into the industry when the license is finished. And maybe save me down the track when i'm stranded in some paddock somewhere with a fouled sparkplug or some such thing. :wink:

PM me if you like, as an employer myself I have found this subject to be very interesting.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby harold » Sun Jan 24 2010, 00:41

I have to comment as I fail to see the difference!
On the one hand you're bagging out an operator who is offering you $17k a year for a flying job but you seem prepared to work on the floor of another organisation for nothing? You suggest you're gaining valuable work experience that may help you further down the line.....I'd rather the $17k and the experience this job will give me than how to change a spark plug for nothing? :roll:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Sun Jan 24 2010, 01:30

fair point Harold, and that is your opinion and your welcome to it, but the shed time is not a full time job, its a saturday here and there and any extra days I want to give them. I can still work my business to support my family and earn a decent wage as well as gain some exp in the hanger in the meantime whilst finishing the CPL. The 17 K a year is when license has been paid for and completed, its full time, so no time to work a second job to make up the income difference, and most likly 7 days a week away from home. Yes granted its flying and its paid exp, but reality is I don't know anyone who could survive on those wages for a year to gain that exp. If it was something like "well we can't give you full time work cause we don't have a spot but if you want to be on call to move choppers around and fill in when someone is away or sick we can prob work something out, and look at part time salary etc" then that would be different as it still allows me to make decent money in a second job or run my business while gaining exp flying at the same time. But as a full time wage under those conditions I really don't think they compare. Its not like I'm doing 40hrs a week in the shed for nothing. appreciate your comment though. :cool_dc:

Just as a second note, I have not at any point bagged out anyone, simply asked if this is normal wages for new pilots in the industry and used my experaince as an example. I am not saying that the operator should or shouldn't, that is up to the wageline people to determine, I have simply been trying to find out if they are the norm, or whether they are a one off or minority. Just because i think its criminal wages doesn't mean i don't think they should operate, if someone is prepared to work for that money and has the means to support them selves for 2 yrs to do it that way then good on them, and I hope the company looks after them. Harold are you a pilot in the industry? What sort of money did you start out on? Award not award? Close to award or less than half? Do you still fly for operator start off X now? these are what i'm asking, I'm not here to slag anyone but looking for other peoples exp preferably without mentioning names of operators or companies good or bad. take it or leave it. :|
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby choppermech1986 » Sun Jan 24 2010, 03:24

Pegasus. I think I know to whom you refer. And I know a few of their senior pilots use bladeslapper so just tread carefully (might be a bit late for that). If you want to do mustering, just go with your bare licence. If you are worth your salt, they will pay to have you endorsed on the R44 usually about 400hrs down the track. Of course, they would like you to pay for it now so they don't have to pay for it later. I think you will find they have just put on a few new pilots so they definately have the upper hand. Although, with your contacts, you sound like you would be a good man to have around. Be careful though, there is such a thing as being overqualified for the job. And when you have more business experience than your superiors you have to know when to shut your mouth and play dumb. I just wish I could work out who you are. Take it easy up there!
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Sun Jan 24 2010, 03:48

choppermech1986 wrote:Pegasus. I think I know to whom you refer. And I know a few of their senior pilots use bladeslapper so just tread carefully (might be a bit late for that). If you want to do mustering, just go with your bare licence. If you are worth your salt, they will pay to have you endorsed on the R44 usually about 400hrs down the track. Of course, they would like you to pay for it now so they don't have to pay for it later. I think you will find they have just put on a few new pilots so they definately have the upper hand. Although, with your contacts, you sound like you would be a good man to have around. Be careful though, there is such a thing as being overqualified for the job. And when you have more business experience than your superiors you have to know when to shut your mouth and play dumb. I just wish I could work out who you are. Take it easy up there!


good advice mate and thanks, I do hope I haven't put my foot it in, :oops: anyone got a crowbar? As i said, was not trying to be a smart arse or run anyone or any company / business or otherwise down, really just wanted to find out if these conditions where across the board or only a minority, sometimes what goes on in the mustering /rural industry is somewhat different to the rest of the world, and I also think its not a bad thing seeing as I assumed award wages would be paid and was obviously quite supprised to find this wasn't the case, for other new pilots and students about to set out on the job search or license road to read these posts and realise what i didn't know till I got to the hanger, was a pretty big supprise I can tell you. Only way I can think of apart from ringing every helicopter business in QLD and asking what they pay is to ask here. Hope I haven't upset too many people, but hey if that's how the wages are then that's how they are, and i will simply have to figure out a way to work under those conditions and not starve. Others have done it, so its not impossible. Only problem is I hate noodles so could be interesting. :cool_dc:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby fly in the sky » Mon Jan 25 2010, 04:16

So I wonder how the paid by the hour blokes get on ie is there an award that applies to them as well?
I heard of a job where you got for every month $40 per hour for the first 60 hrs, $60 p/h for the second 60hrs and for the third 60 hrs $80 p/h.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby hand in pants » Mon Jan 25 2010, 04:26

The bloke being paid by the hour is paying his own tax, super and workers compensation. He is called a contractor and he negotiates his rate before he leaves his own home.
This maybe the way things will go if people start demanding money beyond what they are worth.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby bl@ckers » Mon Jan 25 2010, 04:50

What happens at the end of the day when a disgruntled pilot gets this sh!t$ with their employment conditions and leaves his/her first job where he/she is paid well below the award and decides to go to the fair work ombudsman and complain about being paid so poorly and below award conditions (which is illegal)?

The ombudsman will have to investigate the complaint and it is highly likely that the employer will be forced to pay the short fall in payments to the disgruntled pilot. The pilot has nothing to lose as he/she has already left and it is more than likely the employer will have to cough up the shortfall, so a potential big win.

There have been a few cases here recently where the ombudsman has investigated quite a few employers (various industries, none of which are aviation) who were paying below the award and the employers were forced to make lump sum payments to make up for the error in addition to fines. It has been a very costly exercise for some!

If you ask me those who are paying below the award are leaving themselves open to hefty fines and repayments of large quantities of money, because it must be remembered that it will not just be the disgruntled pilot who is back paid, but also all others that are identified during the investigation, quite possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Something to think about....
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Ray McCooney » Mon Jan 25 2010, 06:05

Blackers, this has happened at least once that I know of and the pilot got paid the money owed to him by his previous employer, however I don't know how far the case went before the employer paid up.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby SIR SPANK ALOT » Mon Jan 25 2010, 06:36

Pegasus,
When you finish your license with min 105 hrs ,with maybe 20 hrs in a R44.How much money do you think you should be paid :?:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby choppermech1986 » Mon Jan 25 2010, 07:48

I heard from a solid source that Heli-Work pilots on the Bungles this year were being paid mid $40's. That's with accomodation if I remember rightly, not bad for a first job as it was for some of the boys. As much as I hate discussing wages, this has been a pretty interesting thread. Aviation, you don't have to be mad, but it helps.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 25 2010, 08:10

SIR SPANK ALOT wrote:Pegasus,
When you finish your license with min 105 hrs ,with maybe 20 hrs in a R44.How much money do you think you should be paid :?:


the award.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 25 2010, 08:11

choppermech1986 wrote:I heard from a solid source that Heli-Work pilots on the Bungles this year were being paid mid $40's. That's with accomodation if I remember rightly, not bad for a first job as it was for some of the boys. As much as I hate discussing wages, this has been a pretty interesting thread. Aviation, you don't have to be mad, but it helps.


sounds like a pretty good deal to me, specially if accomodation is thrown in.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Low Time » Mon Jan 25 2010, 15:17

You want the award? Why? is the 1st question every CP will ask you when you go for that very elusive 1st job. What are you worth to me? will be the 2nd question.

Answer- Nothing.

You have a nice shiny brand new CPL(H) and maybe a R44 endorsement.

You will have zero experience. Will you know how to take a booking? Will you know how to organize and give an accurate quote? Can you organize gift certificates? Can you properly brief your passengers in accordance with your companies OP’s manual? Can you refuel the company’s helicopters according to the Op’s manual?

Will you be able to do a film job? Will you be able to plan, organize and execute the smooth pick up and transfer of international passengers from international or busy regional airports?

Will you be able to fly unsupervised into a pad on a river in a major capital city, dodging large cargo ships and other helicopters arriving and departing from said pad.


In my opinion the answer is No. Why is that you ask? because you have no experience. You will barely be able to hold a steady hover, let alone fly a basic scenic flight, give informative commentary and answer bone questions from your passengers. Yes you will be able to get and gain the experience you will need and require to become a safe and competent pilot. That takes time, dedication and a lot of hard work. I know because all those things I have asked you above, are some of the things that I was taught and shown how to do. Didn't get paid the 'Award' either when I started.

In a perfect world you would get your award, unfortunately it's not and you won't.

Choppermech has already warned you about how many potential employers, CP & Senior Pilots read this stuff. You have 156 posts since joining on 16th Dec 2009. Again my opinion, you have made a very big target for yourself. I know, as a few of the Captains I fly with have mentioned it.

This is a tough industry to break into, and as you have already pointed out you don't even hold a license

I’m not having a go, I think you want to very careful in how you come across on this forum. Most of us are professional pilots & engineers and it’s a very small industry.

I’d be more worried about how you are going to get your 1st job and how much more you have to learn.

Hopefully you will make it, many have tried, few do get there. How I do know? Because I have done it.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Bedouin Prince » Mon Jan 25 2010, 22:10

Hear hear Mr Low time. I agree with you all the way. I too started on below award wages, not all that far below though, and in hindsight, when I look back now and realize how very little I knew about actual flying, I've got to commend any chief pilot who has the guts to take low timers out of school under their responsibility and train them into real pilots. It's a big job, responsibility and risk for any chief pilot to take on.
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