Discussion on wages

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:26

thread is creeping away from original question again but correct me if I'm wrong but just to add a bit more to what i said above, you do the maths:

say you fly 3000 hours over 3 yrs for $17,000 yr 1, $22,000 yr 2 and $28,000 yr 3.
so total wages of $67,000 GROSS>
then you work out what chopper made gross
$330 (inc GST) mustering rates fuel provided by customer x 3000hrs. = $990,000

so tell me again why they can't afford to pay me proper wages, even taking into account insurance and the rest?

Splitpin

you are prob right, how about a life that pays, got any jobs going? :wink:
Last edited by Pegs on Mon Jan 25 2010, 03:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby splitpin » Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:32

No not for someone who becomes an expert before having any experience :twisted:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:42

splitpin wrote:No not for someone who becomes an expert before having any experience :twisted:


I think you missed the point mate, where have i said anything about being better than anyone else? you speak about experiance, I will assume you are talking Pilot experiance, as my business and employer skills are extensive, not expert, but definatly confident. Have employed staff for over 6 years and I have been hauled up before wageline to explain rates of pay when staff decided for one reason or another that I wasn't playing by the award, so why do you think the aviation industry should be exempt?

Can you give a decent business related reason why it would be ok for an operator to employ a pilot on a 17K salary when they come to you with a license paid for and a mustering endorsement, but no on the job experiance? You can't use the fact they have no experiance as this is why awards have experiance and age brackets for pay, so this is already governed by the state, so what is your reason? :|
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby splitpin » Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:46

Just the proliferation of dribble over the past month :roll:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby skypig » Mon Jan 18 2010, 12:05

Pegasus
Every decent job posting that says minimum 1500 hours exp required.
There you go then :D :D :

• 1 year (Maximum full time equivalent) Training. Expensive, but basically great fun. 72.9hrs TT RW
• 1 year “flying a broom and getting your eye in” (and proving you are not a complete dickhead). First “Flying Job” $17000 (maybe some food and lodgings {I know, I know...}). 372.9hrs TT RW (especially if you have the “handy R44” rating.
• 1 year Mustering. $22000 (according to you) TT 1572.9hrs TT RW (1500 PIC)

3 year apprenticeship finished, some great times had, some money earned, lots of money spent:- and off to “a decent job.” (Ha, ha :lol: )
Doesn’t sound that bad to me. :D 8) :cool_dc: :cool_slp:

I’d say if you showed up with a CPL-H, an R44 endorsement (better to have 20hrs) and a mustering endorsement (optional really, most won’t), did a reasonable job and got paid $17000 in year one and $22000 year two, you’d owe that employer zero. :P Don’t get me wrong, I’d be grateful for the start in the industry but if you pay below award don’t expect award, notice, for example. (If required for a better job/opportunity, say :D ).

Play nice now :wink:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 18 2010, 12:10

skypig wrote:Pegasus
Every decent job posting that says minimum 1500 hours exp required.
There you go then :D :D :

• 1 year (Maximum full time equivalent) Training. Expensive, but basically great fun. 72.9hrs TT RW
• 1 year “flying a broom and getting your eye in” (and proving you are not a complete dickhead). First “Flying Job” $17000 (maybe some food and lodgings {I know, I know...}). 372.9hrs TT RW (especially if you have the “handy R44” rating.
• 1 year Mustering. $22000 (according to you) TT 1572.9hrs TT RW (1500 PIC)

3 year apprenticeship finished, some great times had, some money earned, lots of money spent:- and off to “a decent job.” (Ha, ha :lol: )
Doesn’t sound that bad to me. :D 8) :cool_dc: :cool_slp:

I’d say if you showed up with a CPL-H, an R44 endorsement (better to have 20hrs) and a mustering endorsement (optional really, most won’t), did a reasonable job and got paid $17000 in year one and $22000 year two, you’d owe that employer zero. :P Don’t get me wrong, I’d be grateful for the start in the industry but if you pay below award don’t expect award, notice, for example. (If required for a better job/opportunity, say :D ).



Play nice now :wink:


well said Sky Pig. ,my sentiments exactly. :cool_dc:

for the record, should anyone care to know what the award says; :wink: :shock: :roll:
http://www.airc.gov.au/awardmod/awards/MA000046.pdf
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby CYHeli » Mon Jan 18 2010, 23:53

I've had it explained to me by a number of people involved in running companies of the hidden costs in employing low hour pilots.
The extra check rides, the gaining of PIC time for charter, route checks for various scenic options - not just flying the route, but describing/repeating the patter that the operator wants the pax to hear. It's not just about the flying!

When I flew at location X, the new pilots had to be checked to each route, first the 8 minute flights and there were 3 different ones, a 15 min, a 20 min and then by that stage they had covered the whole location and could fly all the site flights. There were radio calls to be made in and out of a restricted area, etc.
Each of these route check flights cost the company money... A better pilot would cost the company less and therefore could earn more. As a casual I was paid $20 per day.
Later I moved to an award paying job. Same company, but bank rolled by a different person and it went bust. This is where I gained the most experience because I had a closer look at what was happening. Not good watching the company you work for going belly up.

I had an ops manager at another company saying the same thing about a new instructor
It takes two wages to employ a new instructor, because they have to be supervised. They don't start making us money until they are into their second year.
Serious!

And yes I was looking for a bite about the flight training, but it was based around what the CP at location X said, that when new pilots come out of a flight school they are not ready to fly commercially. Lots of ground training (money spent) Ops manual, how to do dailies, CAO 20.11 training. It also cost the CP time (money) to do this training. (Yes I know that's what he is paid to do!!) -
But it costs money to bring a new pilot up to standard
I was wondering the thoughts of other CP's.

But after all that you would think that it cost the off-shore companies zero $$ to bring a new line pilot up to speed. I mean what could be involved in a Co-pilot IR or a CIR rating or route checks off-shore? It all comes back to the cost to the customer. Maybe it's time to put the costs to the pax up to cover ALL operating costs if we have to be realistic.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby harold » Tue Jan 19 2010, 03:01

I'll take the bait!
Where do we get off calling ourselves professionals...professional whats?
If I spend the money (many thousands of $'s)becoming a Dr, I train for 6 years and earn a degree which for the most part,is recognised world-wide.
I don't even need a HSC to become a pilot! I actually need NO formal education other than a requirement to be literate. I get no degree only a licence to drive a helicopter; nothing more than the guy who drives a taxi really although the guy driving the bus has more responsibility (passenger-wise) than I do.
Let's not over-rate ourselves here; as a boggy VFR pilot with 100-200 hours and no other qualifications, I am nothing more than a glorified taxi driver! Now how much am I worth??? :wink:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Tue Jan 19 2010, 03:07

harold wrote:I'll take the bait!
Where do we get off calling ourselves professionals...professional whats?
If I spend the money (many thousands of $'s)becoming a Dr, I train for 6 years and earn a degree which for the most part,is recognised world-wide.
I don't even need a HSC to become a pilot! I actually need NO formal education other than a requirement to be literate. I get no degree only a licence to drive a helicopter; nothing more than the guy who drives a taxi really although the guy driving the bus has more responsibility (passenger-wise) than I do.
Let's not over-rate ourselves here; as a boggy VFR pilot with 100-200 hours and no other qualifications, I am nothing more than a glorified taxi driver! Now how much am I worth??? :wink:


Bait taken :twisted: You are worth as much as the current National Award for your experience and level of responsability says you are entitled too. You are not worth LESS than that! :wink: On the professional note, you don't need a degree to be a professional, I run a business and am considered a professional in my field, no paper required to prove it, you prove it with satisfied customers and repeat business, if your not professional you don't have a business, transfer that to flying, if you are not a professional pilot and conduct your self as such you will not be a pilot for very long. :idea:

Wikipedia Definition - Professional

Main criteria for professional include the following:

1. Academic qualifications - A teaching degree (University doctoral program)theological, medical, or law degree - i.e., university college/institute.
2. Expert and specialised knowledge in field which one is practising professionally.[6]
3. Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.[7]
4. High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing or other work endeavours.
5. A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc). The professional owes a higher duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests
6. Reasonable work moral and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.[8]
7. Is a individual who does not require supervision


Cy Heli, you make many valid points and I guess what it comes back to is Business in Aviation is no different to any other business costs increase so rates must increase too. If this means higher rates to customers to ensure staff get paid properly than its high time it happened. :cool_slp:
Last edited by Pegs on Tue Jan 19 2010, 07:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Baby Back Ribs » Tue Jan 19 2010, 03:57

Let's not over-rate ourselves here; as a boggy VFR pilot with 100-200 hours and no other qualifications, I am nothing more than a glorified taxi driver! Now how much am I worth???


Hear what you're saying, however the taxi driver didn't spend $50,000+ on his/her licence and didn't have 7 CPL exams to sit, plus all the other minor ones required for pre-solo, BAK etc.

Anybody can go drive a cab, less than 0.0001% of this population has a CPL-H with a current medical.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby skidmark » Tue Jan 19 2010, 04:41

Then go drive a cab - you might earn a good living, save yourself a fortune and not have to ship off anywhere. Sounds ace.

Or there's labouring, working at a servo, painting, garbage collection, fruit fly inspection and any number of careers waiting.

We ain't special - a CPL is not 'elusive', anyone who wants to fork out the cash can get one. And we choose to - haven't met a careers adviser yet who would say Well sir/ma'am, looking at your resume and experience, seems like the only option left for you is to get a commercial helicopter license. Otherwise you're unemployed - sorry to break the bad news.

And as the wannabe pilots who complain about starting out on the award turn down offers, I watch the ones who don;t use this forum to bleat about it zooming past on their way to great careers within a couple of years, because they show employers a great attitude, want to contribute, word gets around and they're on their wy.

As for passing on the charges to customers so pilots can earn more, BRILLIANT!! Makes sense that customers should stretch themselves and should pay more so Johnny Newbie can live out his fantasy of being a chopper pilot. It should be a registered charity too.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Baby Back Ribs » Tue Jan 19 2010, 05:06

Then go drive a cab

I have don't worry about that, it helped pay off my CPL
We ain't special - a CPL is not 'elusive', anyone who wants to fork out the cash can get one.]

Never said we were 'special' but I would like to consider our profession to be professional, if that's ok with you
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Erbine » Tue Jan 19 2010, 05:26

I have a good acronym for you that you might encounter around the industry!
F
I
F
O
Fit In or....well you will hear the rest when you start demanding wages and how much YOU should be on.
good luck fellas! :wink:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby harold » Tue Jan 19 2010, 05:31

News Flash BBR - professional is NOT what you are straight off the CPL course - a long way from it!
Get a whole heap of hours (experience) and another heap of quals and then you might be considered a professional.......and then we'll see who claims the big bucks!
A brand new CPL getting paid $17 - $20K IMHO is a fair cop! As said before, operators sometimes take a huge risk financially employing low timers.
I know a CFI who put himself before a court of law claiming to be an Expert.......almost got laughed out of the courthouse!
Sometimes we get caught up in all the hyperbole and hoopla and forget not where the journey starts but where the journey ends!
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Baby Back Ribs » Tue Jan 19 2010, 06:00

Get a whole heap of hours (experience) and another heap of quals and then you might be considered a professional.......and then we'll see who claims the big bucks!


News flash, I have been flying helicopters since '95 and I do have enough hours to qualify my response thank you, please READ my comments, I never mentioned anything at all about pay, I started on less than $15,000pa with my first job and you don't see me complaining about it.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby NZHelo » Tue Jan 19 2010, 06:29

Baby Back Ribs wrote:

Hear what you're saying, however the taxi driver didn't spend $50,000+ on his/her licence and didn't have 7 CPL exams to sit, plus all the other minor ones required for pre-solo, BAK etc.


Yes but the taxi driver probably did spend that amount albeit on visas and nationalisation.....All that aside a fair few taxi drivers are highly qualified (in there country of birth) and thats no lie. I digress.

If you all check the new laws and awards scheme you will find that by law the employer now HAS to pay the award regardless of experience so thats $41332 for your first year.
http://afap.org.au/html/s02_article/art ... _top_id=74
http://www.fairwork.gov.au/Pay-leave-an ... loyees#pay rates under modern awards

So hopefully now this thread will soon all be forgotten as everybody will be getting paid Oc:=
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Capt Hollywood » Tue Jan 19 2010, 07:26

I don't usually engage in these discussions as they generally descend into a slanging match, but this topic is one that I'm getting on my soapbox about. Lets see how many friends I can lose in one go!

First let me state my position on the subject. I, for one, agree completely with this new award and hope that it is enforced. The indicated starting salary range seems very fair to me, for crying out loud, IT'S ONLY $40k!!

professional is NOT what you are straight off the CPL course - a long way from it!


Gotta disagree with you there Harold. I consider myself a professional and I have done in all my career choices, from my days as a diesel mechanic to my career in aviation. In my opinion, being professional has nothing to do with experience, qualifications or the type of job you do. It is a mindset and the result of a conscious decision as to how you perform the task at hand.

I think a few are missing the point. I don't believe anyone on this thread is asking for anything more than the fundamental right to a fair days pay for a fair days work. The issue is what some of you think is a fair days pay.

A brand new CPL getting paid $17 - $20K IMHO is a fair cop!


You've got to be kidding me mate. As Worzel Gummidge said, it's 2010. I got more than that when I started flying 13 years ago and I made just under that as a first year apprentice some 22 years ago! Forget the award for a minute, paying anyone that amount for a full time role is simply criminal and I'm not using that term metaphorically! It's a good thing, then again maybe it's a bad thing, that the Fair Work Ombudsman doesn't have a confidential reporting system as they'd be run off their feet!

The argument that you have no experience and as such don't deserve the award is utter bull$hit. Who then decides when you deserve the award? That's the whole point of an award, it's gets rid of these arguments and forces businesses to adequately compensate their staff for the work they do.

Fit In or....well you will hear the rest when you start demanding wages and how much YOU should be on.


Jesus, what sort of a conformist attitude is that! Speaking up when we feel something isn't right is one of the values this country was built on, does the Eureka Stockade ring a bell!

Good luck to all those new pilots out there. I see a pay rise coming your way!

Cheers,

Dan.
Last edited by Capt Hollywood on Tue Jan 19 2010, 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Tue Jan 19 2010, 07:35

thanks Dan. :lol:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Baby Back Ribs » Tue Jan 19 2010, 07:42

well done captain
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Freewheel » Tue Jan 19 2010, 08:19

Speaking up when we feel something isn't right


....is an essential part of CRM, multi crew operations and in terms of action rather than speech, something pilots are trained for from the very outset.

An employer that expects you to F. I. or F. O. about how you're paid is the employer who expects you to F. I. or F. O. about that leaky gearbox, broken instrument or last light.

Leopards and spots, leopards and spots.....
Never forget that some people exist purely as a warning to others.

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