Discussion on wages

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
dragonfly
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby dragonfly » Fri Jul 4 2008, 04:33

There is only one thing I don't like about the award, and that is that it is based on yrs of service.

I think this is fair enough in one respect, but my beef is with the following example.

Currently doing Scenic flights a bit of charter and photography work, I only have 1100hrs flying both piston and turbine.

I am curently on the 1st year service of the award, which I am happy with as my experience is minimal.

I know of some one else who has less than 500hrs, only flys piston but is on the same wage.

Now I am not saying I am a better pilot than this person or that this person doesn't deserve what they get.

My point with the award is that if the company that you work for only pays the award it doesn't matter what your experience is you can still get paid the same as someone with less experience.

Now I know as my experience broadens I can start to negotiate,I just wanted to make the above point.

I guess I should thank everyone in advance for any scrutiny be it harsh or not.

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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby skypig » Fri Jul 4 2008, 08:20

Often prior experience/qualifications means you don’t start at year one with a new (serious) employer. That is things like each 3000hrs PIC = 1 year credit, Current CIR = 2 years ME command endorsements on company types = 1year per type.
Limits apply but you could easily start at year 4 and potentially start at year 8.
8) 8)
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Ray McCooney » Fri Jul 4 2008, 11:12

Check out the pay for the Jayrow job on the other thread. 100K and a free house for flying a EC120. Sounds like a good deal to me. Ok it's Port Headland but I bet there is a good lifestyle up there like other bush positions. If I had the mins I would apply.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Helmet Head » Mon Jul 7 2008, 00:21

Dragonfly,

How much do you think you should get paid?

And how much do you think the person with 500 hours should get paid?
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby dragonfly » Mon Jul 7 2008, 01:46

Good Question HH,

I guess what I am saying is that there should be a bit of difference in pay due to experience.

How much I don't know maybe a few grand??????


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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby RealityCheck » Mon Jul 7 2008, 05:01

dragonfly wrote:Good Question HH,

I guess what I am saying is that there should be a bit of difference in pay due to experience.

How much I don't know maybe a few grand??????


Cheers :D


so if the 500 hour pilot is a better pilot than the 1100 hour pilot, who should get paid more then?
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby dragonfly » Mon Jul 7 2008, 06:03

The 500hr pilot. :lol: :(

Especially if he has more/better experience.

Anyway this could keep going that was just what I wanted to say.

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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby skypig » Mon Jul 7 2008, 07:38

I find the current situation quite interesting. :)

There are two forces at work:

1 Low hour pilots are keen to fly and gain experience, so we will work for nothing if required. :oops:

2 Experienced pilots are in short supply, so the savvy organizations that need experienced pilots so they can operate and make a profit are prepared to pay the required remuneration and ensure other good conditions. :D

Some employers still think along the lines of: “They work for nothing with 200hrs. How much more can they be worth with 1000hrs?” :?:

Very few ME IFR drivers would work for less than $100K. (I don’t think experienced SE VFR drivers with long line skills would be much different) 8)

Where is the line? I don’t think it’s a smooth curve! )c/
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 18 2010, 03:21

ok, been scrolling through the posts on wages as I went to see a local company today about the "ins and outs" of a job when flight training is over, basically the deal was this; "come and see us when you have your license including the mustering endorsement, then you will fly a broom for the first 6 months and then you will fly a chopper out of town, 7 days per week for 12 months with hardly a day off and you will not see home much during that time, new pilot start rates of $17,000 per year salary".

Now I'm not bitching about the flying a broom thing, as i realise as with every trade that’s where you start, but if i am going to dish out over $100,000 of my money to get a commercial license and the mustering endorsement, plus the R44 Endorsement that the company said would "be real handy too if you want a job with us" then I think i'm worth a bit more than $17,000 K a year.

SO my big question is this, as i'm wondering if this rate is just one opertator or across the board, what are new pilots getting paid out there and what sort of incentives are being offered to stay if flying for low dollars? Are new pilots getting paid per year/salary or is it flight time? $17 K is less than ringers (1st year ringers) wages on a station, you don't spend $100 K to get there and you get fed and housed as well. So Is this rate across the board or have i been led down the garden path?

I don't think I was being unrealistic when I was thinking start off pay rates should have been around the $35 K mark salary. Anyone care to comment, i would like to hear other people's experiences. Also if anyone cares to post the link to the pilot award for QLD that would be appreciated too.

thanks
Last edited by Pegs on Mon Jan 25 2010, 02:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby harold » Mon Jan 18 2010, 06:24

Pegasus, therein lies the problem. The company is offering $17K per anum and you knock the job back seeking more $'s (quite reasonably too) but there are another 10 pilots behind you willing to lap the job up....there's probably even a couple that would be willing to 'pay' $10 an hour for the privilege!
The problem does not necessarily lie with the operator offering so little; the problem lies with the pilots so willing to accept so little! This problem of underpaying would disappear the moment EVERY BOGGY PILOT put their hand up for a fair days pay - let's face it; most of us have spent thousands upon thousands getting that illusive CPL and we have every right to expect a return on our investment! It'll never happen but every new pilot should be saying; "Pay me properly or 'f' off"! Unfortunately, we only have the power when we have some better ammo in our bag of tricks; like IFR, LONG LINE HOURS, FIRE EXPERIENCE etc....until then, I guess the circle just continues on and on and on!
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby hand in pants » Mon Jan 18 2010, 06:57

I must admit that when I see threads on "wages" pop up they are good for a laugh.

Just because you spend some money to get qualified doesn't put you at the top of the heap, just puts you in the heap.
And comments about how much money you've had to spend also make my smile. It is a piddling ammount compared to what your intended employer has layed out. He has been at it for years and invested a hell of a lot more time and money than you have. If he is stupid enough to hire you, he then has to teach you how to conduct a flying task as per his requirements (operations manual, something you haven't even laid eyes on during training), he has to insure his aircraft for you to fly (you have bugger all experience, lets not forget that little thing), he has to spend time flying with you when he proberbly has other work to do, there are a raft of other things he needs to have in place for you to fly for him and you bounce through the door with "Pay me properly or 'f' off"!

I know who will be doing the "f ing off". you.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby stixtime » Mon Jan 18 2010, 08:04

I think you might have missed the point mate. No one said they wanted to start at the top of the pile, only that they wanted to be paid a bit more than $17000 per year. Surely any decent operator that's worth their grain of salt could afford to pay this and should as to pay this little must illegal. I'm not saying that a new CPL(H) holder should be paid the $40 something thousand as dictated by the federal award but as Pegasus said, a first year ringer earns more than this, nearly double actually and all they did was rock up to a property and said they wanted to work.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby CYHeli » Mon Jan 18 2010, 09:12

Handinpants, having been involved in the running of an aviation company, I fully understand where you are coming from, but unfortunately new pilots don't know how to see things from the employers position. How could they, unless they have run an aviation company? But do you think the good people at Wageline or whoever comes up with the award wage would not have considered the cost to industry of paying a new pilot $43k per year? There was a review of wages last year, I hope that you had your input so that the powers that be can consider the full cost to a company of having a new pilot.

The only thing stopping most under paid pilots from going to wageline and complaining is the threat that they would never be employable in the industry again. It's funny I have spoken to higher hour pilots who have thought of doing just that retrospectively, but it might only be seen as spite and the chance to get rid of a competitor than a genuine attempt at raising the wage...

Didn't someone up north QLD get done for underpaying pilots?

As an aside (thread creep) is the problem possibly the quality of students that come out of schools that might not be fit to fly commercially.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 18 2010, 09:53

HIP, I do understand where you are coming from, and as stixtime said in i never said i wanted to be in the top of the pile, however if i have to spend 100 K on a license and a mustering endorsment in order to earn this company dollars, i'd like to see a bit more than $8 per hour return. I am aware of some the costs involved in running an aviation business, and employing low hour pilots for mustering sure pushes the insurance through the roof, however you "ole time" pilots can't keep flying forever and there has to be pilots coming through the ranks,

HIP who would you rather hire? the pilot who mummy and daddy just paid to complete flight school and lives at home with mummy and daddy and prob gets an allowance to eke out his lousy salary (or fly's for his tucker) and then he gets bored after a year or two and leaves the industry for good, or the pilot who has just sold most of their worldly possessions and slaved their way through flight school by working three jobs, and will most likly have taken them a few years dedication to do it, who has made the decision to make this their "career" and will still be with the industry in years to come?

By paying better wages you attract (i might add here that i own and manage two business and am well aware how it works) more applicants yes, but you also attract people who want to stay longer, instead of using the company to get a bit further up the ladder than packing their bags and leaving town for the next opportunity.

Frankly I found 17K a bit of an insult, maybe i'm being unreasonable but I want to make a career out of this, and earning less money than the check out chick still in school at Woolies is not the path I had thought to follow. What did i expect to get paid? Well at least 25K. which is still slightly under what a 1st year jackaroo would be getting on stations these days including their board and keep. I was advised by the company that after a full 12 months mustering (so 1000 or so hours at 17K a yr) the wage would increase to 22K.

But back to my original question, what rates are new pilots getting in the industry?, or for that matter what rates did you more experianced pilots start on? be interesting to compare figures....
Last edited by Pegs on Mon Jan 25 2010, 03:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby stixtime » Mon Jan 18 2010, 10:06

CYHELI wrote
As an aside (thread creep) is the problem possibly the quality of students that come out of schools that might not be fit to fly commercially.


Surely now you're just fishing for a bite. Are you saying that there aren't many good pilots out there being trained nowdays therefore operators are deservedly paying new pilots less than they used to? If a company puts on a pilot and "underpays" them, does this automatically mean that the pilot is of of a sub-stardard quality? This wage theory would say more about an operator than the pilot, because they would have put on a pilot who was not up to the standard required for the types of jobs being performed, therefore puting safety at risk.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Ray McCooney » Mon Jan 18 2010, 10:15

Pegasus,

That money is criminal.
Last edited by Ray McCooney on Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:18, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 18 2010, 10:54

stixtime wrote:CYHELI wrote
As an aside (thread creep) is the problem possibly the quality of students that come out of schools that might not be fit to fly commercially.


Surely now you're just fishing for a bite. Are you saying that there aren't many good pilots out there being trained nowdays therefore operators are deservedly paying new pilots less than they used to? If a company puts on a pilot and "underpays" them, does this automatically mean that the pilot is of of a sub-stardard quality? This wage theory would say more about an operator than the pilot, because they would have put on a pilot who was not up to the standard required for the types of jobs being performed, therefore puting safety at risk.



Yep I agree Stixtime, he is fishing for a bite, I don't believe for a minute that we have it any easier getting our license these days then 10yrs ago, I would actually argue that with legislation, regulations, insurance and all the rest (higher fuel pushing prices up for one) that its actually harder for new pilots to get licensed these days which is why its so hard for new pilots to get paid good wages as the pilots who never had to dish a 100K outa there own pocket for a license are happy to work for less.

In this case as the operator said and you pointed out also, I have the right to refuse to work for that money but rest assured there are ten pilots standing behind me that are quite happy to accept those rates and work for even less if need be. How do they do it? well as you say they won't challenge it cause a) frankly you love flying otherwise you wouldn't spend that sorta money, and b) you won't take a chance on being blacklisted for life, and C) its worth it in the end cause you get the hours.

Me? Well Yes I love flying, I would not have sold nearly everything I own and spent a year studying and working 2 business night and day to be able to afford to do it if i didn't, however I will not be signing up for that sorta money, even if they offered to pay for the license I would have to think carefully about it, 17K wouldn't get me a house to rent in town for 12 months let alone pay the fuel bill to run back and forth from work, I think I have the capacity to be a very good pilot with the right training and opportunities as no doubt would plenty of others but if you are going to pay 17K a year you are not going to see me lined up at the gate nor I would recon would you see many other people who have half a brain. :wink:
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Worzel_Gummidge » Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:00

I'm not saying that a new CPL(H) holder should be paid the $40 something thousand as dictated by the federal award...


Hell, I am! Regardless of how much you spend to get your qualification and regardless of how much experience you have, show me virtually any other profession/job where you start on $25k after achieving some form of qualification. Hell, show me ANY other full time job where you earn $25k, can't be too many of them around as the minimum annual wage in Australia is $28,276.56!

To those companies that say they can't afford to pay their pilots more than $25k a year, I say you need to start assessing how much you're charging for your services. You are obviously undercharging if you can't afford to pay your employees the minimum wage. Wages/salaries should obviously be a contributing factor in calculating how much you will charge for whatever it is you do. If you have to cut staff wages below the minimum wage in order to make the numbers work then I suggest you need to look a little closer at what you do and decide whether you should really be doing it!

It's no good telling new pilots to stand up for themselves and demand the award, it aint gonna happen for reasons already mentioned. The only way to make this right is for the relevant authorities to pursue those that are taking advantage of new pilots and paying under the award. Only then, when operators start being forced to comply, will the issue start to be resolved.

It's 2010 for God sake! Are there actually people out there that think $25k is an acceptable wage? :x :x

CYHeli says...
I fully understand where you are coming from, but unfortunately new pilots don't know how to see things from the employers position. How could they, unless they have run an aviation company?


What has running an aviation company got to do with anything? As I've mentioned above it's basic business planning, you work out how much it costs you to do business then work out the margin you want to add to ensure a profit. If making a profit means having to underpay your staff then there's a flaw in your business plan. Simple economics my friend.

new pilots don't know how to see things from the employers position


That's a rather large generalisation about new pilots. Not all new pilots are fresh faced 18 year olds. Many come from professional non-aviation backgrounds with a wide variety of experience in business. Would you say you had no idea of how to "see thing from an employers position" when you left the Police Force CY? I doubt it.

Worzel.
Last edited by Worzel_Gummidge on Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby Pegs » Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:09

You make a very good point Worzel, and no I don't think 25K is a good wage, I thought it might be something you would start a pilot on for the first say 3 months? Until you didn't have to send another pilot with him/her to ensure they where able to do the job in this case muster cattle, and then you would go to full wages as per the award. I had no idea that the plan was to work you to the bone and fly you till you drop, and then pay you less than penutts while slapping you on the back and saying "aren't you so glad we gave you a job?" for like 3 years, in mustering world 3000 odd hours worth of time, the really frighting thing is not only are companies paying this sort of money and pilots taking it on, but the companies are also signing them up for 3 yrs on those rates to maxamise the benifit of the "cheap labour" new time pilots. The thing that makes pilots take these jobs? Every decent job posting that says minimum 1500 hours exp required.
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Re: Discussion on wages

Postby splitpin » Mon Jan 18 2010, 11:24

Pegasus,
Mate you need to get a life :roll:

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