Discussion on wages

[Pegs]

And as the wannabe pilots who complain about starting out on the award turn down offers, I watch the ones who don;t use this forum to bleat about it zooming past on their way to great careers within a couple of years, because they show employers a great attitude, want to contribute, word gets around and they're on their wy.

Lets get something very clear here Skidmark, as you obviously didn't bother to read this thread from the start, the whole reason I brought this thread up to start with is because I was offered17K a year salary to fly for a company as a new pilot coming to that company holding my CPL (H), mustering endorsment, current Med, and preferably endorsed for R44! That is NOT STARTING OUT ON AWARD!!!!

Had I been told yes come work for us we will START you on AWARD wages and when you prove useful we will look at increasing it, then I would have been ecstatic and would have happily flown 7 days a week for that company to earn them their $. The whole point is that we new pilots (and prob quite a few exp ones) are not getting paid the award, a bloody long way from it actually, there is no way I could fly for that sorta money for 12 months, did i mention the requirment to live in town to work for that company? no rent or food chucked in either? You do the maths mate and tell me if you think you could do it. As Cap H said what i'm asking for is to get paid a fair days pay for a fair days work, i don't expect more than the award, but i'd like to be offered a bit closer to it if you don't mind.

[hand in pants]

Pegasus, how much homework did you do prior to spending your thousands. Not much if this has taken you by surprise.
If you are so insulted, go to whoever looks after these things and tell them what's being paid and how illegal it is.
Stop bitching and whining on slapper. So far all you have done is point it out, but not named any names or listed any companies, if it's such a crime, do something about it other than bore us with your problems.

Just be careful how you do it, you may get what you wish for and see a lot of bush companies jobs for low hour pilots dry up before your very eyes and then you will be back at your old job doing something other than flying. But you'll still have that shiny new, but unused, CPL(H).

Did you try to talk to the operator about more money or did you just leave. Could have been a test to see how serious you were, particularly seeing as you don't ever have the licence.

[skidmark]

The whole point is that we new pilots (and prob quite a few exp ones) are not getting paid the award, a bloody long way from it actually, there is no way I could fly for that sorta money for 12 months, did i mention the requirment to live in town to work for that company? no rent or food chucked in either? You do the maths mate and tell me if you think you could do it. As Cap H said what i'm asking for is to get paid a fair days pay for a fair days work, i don't expect more than the award, but i'd like to be offered a bit closer to it if you don't mind.

Think I may have been misunderstood as I meant the guys that demand the award, but fair enough mate, you should land that first award-paying job with your 105 hours and your healthy attitude by no later than 2020. Meanwhile hundreds of hard-working pilots will be zipping past you after maybe a year of low pay onto bigger and better things. It's how it works, and screaming for change will, as HIP wrote, make it worse, not better.

With a good attitude you're not likely to start out on great money but it will not be long before you reap the rewards - I can count 10 junior pilots I know in the past 12 months who have been well rewarded for sacrifice and are extremely happy pilots. And I see 'nice' operators getting shafted by dickheads who soak up training and CP time only to walk away the second they're actually of value, leaving the operator significantly out of pocket. That's real good for the industry too and is half the reason why some operators aren't willing to invest in new pilots.

Anyway, it amuses me that while the bleaters bang on here the pilots who want to work are literally flying past them onto great things. I like it.

[Pegs]

round and round it goes I give up.

For the record and what ever its worth, I went and visited another aviation company in the area, they did not promise me any job prospects however did say that I could come out and TA for the engineer a few days a week while I was still doing the CPL, and they would see what they could do to help me after I had proved I was serious and had a license. In their words "we'll give you what you put in", i don't think anyone could ask for more than that, and i certaintly took the offer up without even thinking twice. We discussed wages for pilots and the manager simply stated that they paid the award.

What i liked best was the managers attitude, he spoke to me with respect and seemed sincere in what he said. So here is a chance to gain some valuable experiance on the floor, and make some contacts in the industry, if they don't have a job at the end well thats fine too, but at least they where willing to give me a go and let me have a oportunity to learn something, and should a job come up when CPl is finished, I know they will pay decent wages.

skid mark I am more than happy to do the hard yards, and I'm quite happy to spend time out at the hanger learning to change spark plugs and the like cause its only going to help me be more useful down the track, and one day might even save my life when stuck out on some cattle camp with a broken down helicopter, however when the time comes to chase the jobs I will be steering well clear of the 17K a yr offers as I believe I'm entitled to more than that. Funnily enough it was a small company that wanted to pay 17K a year and a big one that said come out and do some shed work and learn the ropes and we'll see what we can do for you. I am very much looking forward to being the "hanger rat" and i'm thankful for the opportunity.

[Twistgrip]

As Capt Hollywood has stated,

Ive wacthed this post with interest, and agian without prejudice and losing favour one thing that is becoming more evident is the ever increasing number of AOC holders. Having said that from witnesing it in my own backyard, these operators are usually tacked onto other business ventures that start out as private ops then decide to get an AOC to subsidise the aviation arm. now ill be the first one to agree some of these large comapnys whom obtain AOC's will charge accordingly. However there are operators that will cut the market and the charter industry to shreads with their bargain basement prices/ free ferrys for pickups/ and basically rape and pillage so they they can get a few dollars to subsidise their toy. how do i know? because there is an operator in my area whos done the same thing for the last 12 months or so. I am reffereing to the tourism sector here.

We have a tourism arm of the company that has been operating for 8 years without incident nor accident and now the result is that clients are telling us well for an R44 charter the "other operator" is offering free pickups and dropoffs to resorts etc etc, our charters are being undercut by at least 3/4........the end result is that punters are being exposed to cheap prices well below running cost and they think its normal, so why go for that expensive guy down the road whos at rates where he needs to make money to pay for running his operation, which of course a big part is paying his pilots a descent weeks salary, for the record our first year pilots are above the $42k.thats with 150 hrs tt...the industry went through this same scenario 10+ yrs ago and finally it got prices up to where they should be in the last few years, but i know its going back to the old cut throat mentality with some operators now. this is just my personal experience i havnt been in the game as long as some but long enough.

What essentially im getting at is that if operators are slashing rates to get that piece of the pie, then of course they can only afford to pay their pilots apittance..........ive always been an advocate of CASA putting a cap on Aoc's issued, i know this wont happen, but as more and more AOC holders come onto the market the smaller the pie gets and guess whats guys and girls!!

Having said that theres an old saying some of you may have heard "when things arent going your way dont get bitter get better!"

[Yakking]

I brought this thread up to start with is because I was offered17K a year salary to fly for a company as a new pilot coming to that company holding my CPL (H), mustering endorsment, current Med, and preferably endorsed for R44! That is NOT STARTING OUT ON AWARD!!!!

For the record and what ever its worth, I went and visited another aviation company in the area, they did not promise me any job prospects however did say that I could come out and TA for the engineer a few days a week while I was still doing the CPL, and they would see what they could do to help me after I had proved I was serious and had a license. In their words "we'll give you what you put in", i don't think anyone could ask for more than that, and i certaintly took the offer up without even thinking twice. We discussed wages for pilots and the manager simply stated that they paid the award.

sorry mate could you just clarify if you have a liscense or not. Because if you're only a student pilot and a company is offering you some paid work, then i'd take the job.

But with so many posts on BS I'm guessing you are a low hr unemployed pilot with too muchfree time on their hands. Whilst itmay not be right, I'd sit back and listen to some of the advice offered on this site (from both sides)

[Token]

Long time reader, first time poster. I am half way through my training and absolutely love it. Two points:

First of all, if fresh cpl pilots are complaining about the costs and wages then why chose to train privately? The military is certainly an option to consider. Training is free and you get a job out of it in the end. I haven't gone down this path for personal reasons (but I'm not complaining about the industry).
Don't get me wrong, I think it is very low "criminal" money, but at the end of the day as long as I can cover my personal costs of living (and my partner is happy haha) then I'll look at all options.

And yes I was looking for a bite about the flight training, but it was based around what the CP at location X said, that when new pilots come out of a flight school they are not ready to fly commercially. Lots of ground training (money spent) Ops manual, how to do dailies, CAO 20.11 training. It also cost the CP time (money) to do this training.

Secondly, why are fresh cpl pilots such a risk to CPs? Why aren't the schools teaching this? I understand the insurance side of things and specific locations & procedures need to be learnt, but still.

Just on a side note, when I asked my instructor about job prospects he said it's hard to get a start but he has known fresh cpls to get $60k a year.
Bit of a lure but I'm glad I've had a bit of a reality check. I'm considering changing schools, but I won't name names as you never know - he might even be Skypig...

[Pegs]

sorry mate could you just clarify if you have a liscense or not. Because if you're only a student pilot and a company is offering you some paid work, then i'd take the job.

But with so many posts on BS I'm guessing you are a low hr unemployed pilot with too muchfree time on their hands. Whilst itmay not be right, I'd sit back and listen to some of the advice offered on this site (from both sides)

Hi Yakking,
am quite happy to clarify my position, at the moment I am a bit over 1/2 way through CPL (H) theory training, and have now started the flying side, hopefully will be finished all including mustering endorsement in about 12-18 months time. The company was not offering me work as a student pilot, they where offering me work when I had finished my license and had gained my Mustering endorsment, plus preferably a R44 endorsment as well. The whole reason I went to see the aviation businesses in the area was to find out what was out there and what was being offered, with the outlook of trying to get some work in the shed and learning something on the ground until i'm finished the CPL.

My personal position is this, I currently own and manage two businesses (have done for over 6 yrs now) in town, employ over 11 full time staff and spend a lot of time in my office during the day, as I have built my business to the point where I can do that, which then gives me the freedom while working on books and co-ordinating my businesses to post on this site. Before I started my business I was in the mining industry for 4 yrs and for the last 3 was as a supervisor. Prior to that I had over 15 yrs in the cattle industry, the last 4 spent overseeing on two properties in the NT, I have a strong background in cattle as my family own several large properties in QLD and the NT, and I grew up on the properties so not your average "fresh faced kid", I also have a family to support and yes I did do my homework before coming into the industry, and i'm well aware that there are sacrafices to be made in order to get where I want to go, but I also have to be realistic.

I'm not about to close my businesses and fly off into the sunset for two yrs for a grand pay total of $39,000 for the two years, as I simply can not do that. If it means I have to do what i'm doing a bit longer in order to be able to land a job that pays me enough to feed my family and pay the rent well then that's what I will do. Oh and by the way i do not consider 40K per year to be good money, it is an award wage and a start off rate at that, my cleaner earns more than that a year, and flying a broom didn't cost her 100K.

Also let it be known that i'm not whining about the cost of my license or anything else for that matter, far from it, I knew how much it would cost before I started and that's not the issue here, the issue is that I (and quite rightly too) expected to be paid the award wage when I had finished my license and landed my first job, however it seems that a lot of you don't agree and the company I went and saw first off didn't either, as you seem to think its perfectly fine to pay a new pilot less than 1/2 the award wage for more than 2 yrs.

Twistgrip, that is great advice, and been my motto for years, not bitter at all, and the views from both sides of the fence have been interesting if not somewhat alarming, let me just say that if i pulled a stunt like that on one of my staff they would have me up before the ATO and wageline so fast I wouldn't blink, so why do pilots feel they are unable to demand they are paid the award? Why should we even have to demand, we should just be paid properly as per the law, no questions asked, what do they advertise when seeking job applicants "oh and by the way we pay below award"??? As for the scare tactics Its not like I don't have 100 more labourers asking me for a job every day of the week, this doesn't mean I exploit it by paying the guys I imploy less money cause I can replace them if they don't like it, but then I pay the award so I don't need to worry about that now do I?

[FerrariFlyer]

A few comments regarding pilots being glorified taxi drivers got me interested in this post. And I think Captain Hollywood put it eloquently in terms of taking professional pride from day one in how one chooses to conduct themselves. Afterall, professionalism is not just the dictate of a 10,000hr pilot. A 105hr driver can be just as professional, minus the knowledge and experience!

It is quite easy to make simplistic and ignorant remarks, including statements to the effect that many pilots are generalised as 'glorified' taxi drivers. I'd be interested to know if this was just a throwaway comment, or something indicating that perhaps a few have no idea of the level of professionalism and skill involved in various pilot roles within our industry. If anyone has ever worked in an EMS/SAR crew in a single pilot IFR role, multi pilot crew flying offshore or various other specialties such as utility or Police work, they would know how far from the truth is. Personally, I take great pride in my work and following a new multi conversion in the coming months, I will be expected to pass no less then 4 check flights on 2 types, one of which is combined with an annual instrument rating renewal and a myriad of other currencies including night flying and CRM. And even veteran captains still hide for a few days before a check flight and study in preparation. Glorified taxi drivers, I think not. Next we will have neurosurgeons bunched in with your local supermarket butcher! If anyone thinks we are seriously just 'glorified' taxi drivers, I would envisage a somewhat brief and short 'driving' career.

The wage debate has been around for a long time and will most likely never disappear. I do not know what the answer is, but one thing for certain is that if people can make a buck out of someone else, they will do it. If junior guys coming through the industry need the hours for a job where they can eventually secure reasonable conditions, many will do whatever they have to in order to get the hours. I know some people will say operators take on risks with hiring low hour pilots, but many also make a tidy profit in many situations from severely underpaying and cutting corners as well in some cases. Some pass it off as helping low hour guys, but it also conveniently lines the pockets of many individuals who take advantage of those who need the hours.

Also, degrees, like CPL qualifications, can also be bought, as long as you have the money and the will to study for a period of time. No difference really.

With Tristgrip's dilemma, again I have no answers for this situation, but what all of us have to remember is that subsidised machines do no favours for any of us, or the industry in general. Driving down commercially accepted standards for rates to subsidise private machines and offset ownership costs reduces what we can all make from the industry. Whilst it is all good and proper to attack those without a job for accepting a role on low pay in order that they fly, we also need to remember that in desperate times people do desperate things. I started on $20k and worked 60-70hrs a week which was criminal, but alas, I did my time like many others and moved onto to things that better suited in terms of conditions and the type of work. As Twisty said, often times people just have to leave for a better situation rather then trying to improve something that is broken. There will always be rogues in the industry, as there are in any walk of life, but at least we have the choice in which ones we work for and for how long. I think many people have enough access to information in this day and age to research adequately what they can expect in this industry, good, bad or otherwise.

Finally, low wages are a scourge on the industry and paying $20k for a starting salary is a sad indictment on where the industry is in this day and age. It is nothing to be proud of. If operators have to model a business' profitability off paying $20k for pilots, they need to perhaps think twice about going into business in the first place. If there are those in the industry that feel so inclined as to make a wage claim against an employer to recover incorrectly paid wages, there are legal mechanisms in place to do so. People across a raft of industry sectors make thousands of claims for unpaid or under paid wages every year so this is nothing new. Perhaps after a few people get stung for doing the wrong thing, it may change how some choose to treat their personnel. But then again, humans have this inane ability to never learn from history and always repeat its mistakes.

And for what it is worth, many apprentices over in the west are now earning $75-100k plus in the first year on the job. Is this the new standard we should aim for, since some still liken the CPL path as an apprenticeship? Or are we happy to use the old $20k per annum argument to keep underpaying our up and coming in the industry?

[harold]

FF - I'll say it again for you; a 105 hour pilot is nothing more than a glorified taxi driver! What you described as a professional is NOT a 105 hour pilot and with your qualifications, you probably have every right to call yourself a professional.
As for a boggy pilot asking for $40k or more as a starting wage, go for it BUT I doubt there will be many boggy pilots getting a leg up the ladder for all the reasons you have already mentioned!
In all seriousness, to pay those sort of wages for most operators they would have to be putting their R44's out at probably $1500 per hour + (and that is probably where the price should be) but whilst ever there remains operators willing to undercut everybody by offering free pickups etc, then there really is little hope of change.
I know an operator that sent a B206 to WA from Sydney for a 40 hour job (with free ferry time both ways)...... anyone hazard a guess how that might have happened?

[fly in the sky]

Most mustering operators pay by the revenue hour flown, receiving a set wage is not the norm

[CYHeli]

Most mustering operators pay by the revenue hour flown, receiving a set wage is not the norm

Some schools do the same thing. This means that the instructor does not earn when he/she is in the classroom doing briefs/debriefs and it relies upon their professionalism to do a good job ground school wise. But how many students would ask their instructor how much they get paid and what the conditions are like? How many instructors would answer truthfully or skirt around the issue?

There are problems when posters on here tell the newbie pilots that they have not done enough research, especially about wages. You would think an assumption about receiving the award wage would be a given, so therefore no need to ask. Given that, how many pilots on here would tell a prospective pilot the truth without the prospect actually asking? Instructors would not volunteer that info unsolicited as they would be cutting their own throats. It's one thing to say that it's hard getting a start in an industry, it's entirely different to say that the job you finally get doesn't pay the award because there's not enough fat in the business to actually pay you.

I also see volunteering in the hangar whilst training is not slave labour, it's education that you aren't paying for. Besides, even Chief Pilots still pick up a broom. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for everyone else in the business.

[Pegs]

Most mustering operators pay by the revenue hour flown, receiving a set wage is not the norm

Some schools do the same thing. This means that the instructor does not earn when he/she is in the classroom doing briefs/debriefs and it relies upon their professionalism to do a good job ground school wise. But how many students would ask their instructor how much they get paid and what the conditions are like? How many instructors would answer truthfully or skirt around the issue?

There are problems when posters on here tell the newbie pilots that they have not done enough research, especially about wages. You would think an assumption about receiving the award wage would be a given, so therefore no need to ask. Given that, how many pilots on here would tell a prospective pilot the truth without the prospect actually asking? Instructors would not volunteer that info unsolicited as they would be cutting their own throats. It's one thing to say that it's hard getting a start in an industry, it's entirely different to say that the job you finally get doesn't pay the award because there's not enough fat in the business to actually pay you.

I also see volunteering in the hangar whilst training is not slave labour, it's education that you aren't paying for. Besides, even Chief Pilots still pick up a broom. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for everyone else in the business.

I totally agree with you CYHeli, and I’m very happy that the second company offered me the opportunity to work in the hanger and gain some valuable experience that I wouldn't get if I started off with a flying spot, on the contrary it will likely help me get the job that actually pays award wages down the track as I will have a little bit more on my CV than some of the other new pilots. As for pushing a broom, everyone has to do that, I have to do it from time to time and I own my business, the day you think your above doing that you have lost your job as far as I’m concerned. Also they are not expecting me to be their 6 days a week and work for free in the hanger, they know I work and have a family and that I will give them every Saturday and every other day that I’m not tied up with my business, the learning experience will be invaluable and if at the end they offer me a job flying for them on award wages than that will be the icing on the cake. If not, hopefully I will have learnt a fair bit and they will give me a reference to take to the next hanger for a job.

The big thing is that yes i had assumed that all companies offered the award as starting rates, I now realise that is not the case, if I had not posted on this forum about it I might have thought it was only the company I spoke too and they where a minority, however judging by the responses some people have made it would seem that is not the case. Don't know if you don't ask, so out of interested what sort of rates did you more exp pilots start on?

[Islandheli]

Hi All,
Pegasus, I am not having a dig at you, but as you pointed out, you own 2 companies, employ 11 staff and the family have cattle stations.
Might I suggest to you, that you buy your own 22/44 get endorsed for chasing cows and hitting trees and stop complaining about this industry that you are attempting to break into. Stop thinking that every company in this game is making millions, some do, they can and do pay for everything, others just get by and should they close then there would be very few positions available for a 105hr pilot. This I know, may cause a problem down the years with a shorage of pilots, but who cares!
I wish you luck with what you are choosing to get yourself into and be careful what you wish for.

[Pegs]

Hi All,
Pegasus, I am not having a dig at you, but as you pointed out, you own 2 companies, employ 11 staff and the family have cattle stations.
Might I suggest to you, that you buy your own 22/44 get endorsed for chasing cows and hitting trees and stop complaining about this industry that you are attempting to break into. Stop thinking that every company in this game is making millions, some do, they can and do pay for everything, others just get by and should they close then there would be very few positions available for a 105hr pilot. This I know, may cause a problem down the years with a shorage of pilots, but who cares!
I wish you luck with what you are choosing to get yourself into and be careful what you wish for.

Fair call IslandHeli,
And i can't say it hasn't crossed my mind even before all this, but to run a successful business you need experiance in the field so i'm still going to need that few years working for someone to gain skills and knowledge, contacts and experiance before I embarked on something like that. still food for thought......

[Gator]

Lets say a new CPL holder did go out and purchase his own R22 with the intention of doing some mustering. Would potential employers look favourably upon this and pay an owner on an hourly contract basis?

Gator

[Pegs]

Gator I think that would depend on a few things, for one how well known are you in the industry you want to target? For me I'm very well known as is my family in the cattle industry with a lot of contacts etc in that field, this may not be the same story for the next fella with a spare 600K lying around and a new CPL. Not to say that would get me a start (and i don't want to do that anyhow at least not before I have some yrs flying exp under my belt) but it would certiantly count for a lot when approaching stations about getting a foot in. Cattle exp is something a lot of pilots don't have when they come to the industry. Also the cattle industry is a definatly a "who you Know" industry. And i don't mean you know them cause they caught you filling your cruiser up and the water pump Diesel tank one arvo either

The other thing is the grazing industry likes to save a dollar, and so if you went in offering a fair drop in rates to have all the mustering on some of the big runs and the manager/owner knew you and knew your experiance with cattle, he would likly give you a go. But once again it won't be me, I'd rather come into this industry as an operator that didn't resort to those tatics.

But if your asking can it be done? well yes it can, I have a few mates who have done it this way and still fly that way now, they make a good living and have a nice little owner operated business, fly for a few stations year in year out, and everyone is happy.

[fly in the sky]

So Pegasus you are potentially (they might think ) asking the local operator in your local district to pay you good money to train you up so you can leave them in a couple of years and take some of their work away by offering cheaper rates and the benefit of your experience gained at their expense.

sounds like a good deal to me

[Pegs]

Fly in the sky,
did you read my post? I have no interest in buying a chopper and then flying 7 days a week to pay for the thing, never be home cause i need to keep flying to pay the chopper off, then come home on sunday after 10 days busting my gut to chase customers to pay my invoices so I can afford to fuel the chopper for the next round.

Well maybe its not that bad, but I run a business remember? If I wanted to be in business why not just keep doing what I already do? Buy a chopper and fly it on weeekends, be far better off money wise. Why even go and work for someone? Or I could buy a chopper and go and fly for the folks on our own properties and be quite happy, but that's not what I want to do, I want a start same as the next bloke, and i'll push a broom, mow lawns and clean choppers till the sky falls in for the right boss, but not for less than award wages which is what this thread is all about. I might add here that you take that risk with any pilot you hire, anyone of them could turn around and start their own operation and that's the chance you take hiring staff in any business.

no mate I never gave that impression to the potential employer, I asked him for a job when flight training was finished, and some shed time before it was finished with the outlook that I'd be quite happy to settle in and fly for that company for years, and he offered me a job, just not an award wage, up to me whether I take it or leave it, as said before its no skin of the operators nose he has dozens of resumes from new and exp pilots coming in every week he's not going to give too hoots what I think about it, no skin off my nose either really, if they can get away with paying those rates then the system isn't set up right to start with,but that's not the operators problem, that is the problem of the officials who are meant to make sure everyone plays by the rules. I'm not going to jump up and down and try and change that, it is far easier to look elsewhere let someone else who can afford it fly for those dollars.

To be honest i'd be quite happy to never go back into business if I had a good paying job doing something i enjoy (I.E flying), its not all fun and feet on the desk being boss. Plus I love cattle nearly as much as i love flying so its likley I would never leave the industry to go chase big dollars somewhere else as its this sort of work that I want to do.

Anyway getting back on track I'd love to know what some of the Heli mustering companies (and the others) pay their new pilots and what sort of conditions are offered, I.E 3 yrs contract etc, feel free to pm me if you don't want to post here.
happy flying

[Heliduck]

Contract term - Until your first stuff up or until a cocky complains about you & won't have you back, whichever comes first. Never happened to me but I saw it happen to others a few times. The other side of the coin is I saw absolutely horrendous pilots write machines off & keep there jobs because a few big clients liked them. Like any job, it's all about the politics.
Pay - I started on $35/hr as a low hr mustering pilot 10years ago with the carrot of a $10/hr xmas bonus if you don't damage anything. I had over 500hrs R22, mustering approval(self funded) & R44 before going to the company. Last I heard in 2004 an experienced pilot was on $65/hr, but I'd expect that to be around $75/hr now. Good contracts will have enough work for you to do the max flight time of 1400 hrs/year once you have over 500hrs mustering.