Wages - Operators have your say

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Fri Feb 27 2009, 00:19

I am taking all this and I agree, but the base is it as low as $25,500 a year? that is only $490.40 a week 12.26 per hour!!

I know what I posted earlier but after doing the maths it puts things into prospective.

I know there are Pilots who will just be out there to get there hours up!!
but if a company is committed to keeping there pilots even if they are on this low low rate for the first six months and they have a plan with the obvious "money" It will keep them around for the five years or more than just getting there hours up.

Understanding more of the responsibilities and abilities of the pilots and there situation is a need and a two way street!!

If a guy came to me and said "I only want 6 months work" he would be treated differently to the one that wanted to stay!!

another as a plumber I know on wages (although I have many years up) I would not take on a wages job for under $40:00 as the standard hourly rate. Then there are all your allowences on top of that that are calculated on an hourly rate.
But it is a whole lot easier to get a plumbing job on this rate.And we get to demand a car, phone and all the other's uniform ect.
Most tradies I won't have on for any length of time but apprentices usually stay alot longer if given a full plan of what is expected.
if I was employing I would rather start off with a newbie and build them, than a pilot that has the big hours ect. and I can only hope when my time comes I find a company like this fairly early in my hours!!
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Fri Feb 27 2009, 06:55

Mentioned earlier was a doc from the AFAP
This is Helicopter Pilots' (General Aviation) Award 1999
THis is not dated 1999 it is the legal year of the first documented release

We have this all over our Regulations in Plumbing and is very common with all government / legal documents, Union agreements, EBA's ect.

This document is dated 30 Oct 2008 and there is a clause in there I read that it increases with inflation Anual 4% or whatever it is this year.

And I know my figures are out.
When I have a full understanding on how to calculate the true costs I will have this bought up again within the organisation I either working for or with and on here again of course

I do understand both Types of people with the live to fly and fly to live
It would be best if we could all get on par and do both.

If you ever get sick of it spend a week with me I am sure you will change your mind!!

Also I'm hearing more of in the last couple of days are Pilots in comercial opps lossing there jobs due to customer lack of spending companies closing down or just downsizing due to economical changes. Is this industry wide?
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Skywork » Fri Feb 27 2009, 08:09

Wheels, so you are slowly coming around to treat your so called pilots with respect and some pay, Another 15 post and you may have got the formula right to start a aviation business
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Fri Feb 27 2009, 14:23

Thanks Skywork, only new to the aviation business not involved as yet but the more I look into the Fair trades and we must agree it is a two way street.
I am dealing with Unions in my industry at the moment and the AFAP at least has there documentation set out so I can understand it. Not so with the plumbing union. I gave them a copy and told them to come back and see me when there's looks like this. LOL You should have seen there faces Anyway,
I have been looking at it with blinders on as if it is the same as every other trade or business.

Once you get a semi licence or a road train licence if a company employs you they cannot give you a lower rate Member of the union or not. TWU

They can however give there better drivers better money than the award!!

If you look at apprentices from my perspective they are Kids living at home still being supported by there Parents.
They know nothing you even need to teach them how to dig a hole, really!!
These Kids are paid on a slave rate for Us the employer to train them, also Pay for there Schooling and to teach them all the bad habits we Know!!
The best age is about 16 still young enough to boss around!!

Not so with Pilots. The average age of a Helicopter Pilot is what 32 at 110 Hrs shiny ticket.
Living out of a suit case on 2 minute noodles.
They have paid out good money to be where they want to be (me to soon)
Most to have not set up a supplement income so they can live threw training and beond.
I have been in a variety of industries and have been ripped off because of the way I was bought up a hand shake was as good as a contract. Been ripped off a number of times because of trust in people.
Now running a business myself and having the advantage of having mentors that are alot more successful than I am!! The number one thing the one mentor I envy the most always says to me is Apprentices are the heart of your Business. Look after them from day one and teach them to run there Operation by the end of there apprenticeship "the magic 4 years" these are the ones who will stick around and make you the money!! it takes 5 years!!

From only a few posts I am getting the Idea Of what is really happening out there!!
I understand low time pilots are getting the short straw
When I'm looking at the dollars even though they are way out some of these guys are getting paid in a week what they should be for 2 days on a weekend
this could free up the rest of the days to make and income!! or at least go surfing fishing or something else!!
If I need two blokes on a job I charge for 2 blokes!!
Are these operators doing this and just pocketing the lot??
Earlier post was a pilot doing a rotation of work but only getting paid for flying!! this is wrong at least a labourers wage for being on the ground should be paid and also agreed on before starting.

Anyone that does work for me is given the rate before starting and if they don't like it they don't work for me.

And skywork it is not just aviation it is all businesses.
The ones who ripped me off either straight out stealing or bad mouthing other workers and other business loosing me business, or I knew were just using didn't last long with me. All qualified with other businesses. the ones that were loyal to me were looked after right from day dot, they were all apprentices.

If I can take this into Aviation with a full plan of work, contacts and Knowledge of other complimenting businesses It will work.
If this means a set out traineeship for me or for people under me so we can bring them up to speed and still make a profit this is what will be put in place and promoted!! Also making sure it is legal!!

Schools will teach me how to pass my flight exam. (read chickenhawk does any school do this many Autorotations?)
the next 100 hours after that will help me hone my skill learned "and help my head swell go down"

After that we really learn how to use the machine we have learned to fly. that is the first step of my plan!

Question to all
Do we report these guys that are not paying right to the right place and risk not getting work anywhere else or do we just not associate with them and hope no one we know gets work with them?
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Worzel_Gummidge » Fri Feb 27 2009, 14:53

Are there in fact ANY operators that pay the award to 105hr pilots?

At the end of the day the reason the award isn't paid is simple, they don't have to. They know that new pilots will work for what is currently being paid and that there is generally plenty of pilots to fill the void left by pilots who stand on their principles and seek the award.

The other obvious problem with comparing a pilot to a plumber is that people WANT to be a pilot. No offence meant to the plumbing fraternity but when was the last time you heard of someone chucking in their job to be a plumber! Piloting is a job that people aspire to, look forward to, dream of, wish for, hope to do one day, there aren't too many jobs these days that people can say that about.

Other than being the right thing to do, it's of no real advantage for an operator to pay the award. It's not as though they won't get good pilots, let's face it, 105hr pilots are all pretty much the same.

Unfortunately I think it's our lot in life, fulfilling our dream of being a pilot means we are willing to make sacrifices to obtain our dream. It's not that hard to understand I suppose, if you advertised a job as towel boy for the Swedish bikini team do you think people would be arguing over an award!
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Twistgrip » Fri Feb 27 2009, 15:41

Are there in fact ANY operators that pay the award to 105hr pilots?


In our tourism arm of the company since 2003 weve had 3 pilots start with us between 120-400 hrs and weve always paid at least the award....the guys have gone onto get 1000+ hrs with us and moved on as they do to further their careers.........they have always been loyal, hard working and dedicated employees. everyone needs to live, the company structures its income such that everyone makes a dollar, in the end your employees are your greatest assset as they are at the caolface representing your company, it all starts with smart management, good company morale which in turn benefits everyone, the company does well ,the pilot does well for his experience level...and everyoe is happy....and as most tourism ops are a breeding ground for junior pilots they eventually move onto bigger and better things.........back in my earlier days (13 years ago)it was normal if not expected to work for your school / instructor/charter operator when i was a low time guy for free because we all wanted to get that elusive jetranger time..........and yes it payed off in the end.......with no compensation but thats how it was back then, i accepted it as i needed/wanted the time to progress!.i think times have changed these days and everyone we employ regrdless of experience gets paid their dues, and i am writing this in answer to your question Worzel_Gummidge since our company has been operating since 2003 we have always paid the award wage if not higher depending on experience 8)
"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen or you can wonder what happened"
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Worzel_Gummidge » Sat Feb 28 2009, 02:47

I applaud your efforts Twistgrip, you strike me as the sort of person that is proud to say they believe they SHOULD pay the award rather than being disgruntled at HAVING to pay the award. Pity there aren't more like you out there. I see you're also a fan of the Richard Branson philosophy, start by treating your staff well and most will work hard for you and in turn your customers, (and shareholders if you have any) will be happy.

My question wasn't meant as an accusatory statement just a genuine query as I couldn't think of any of the usual operators that pay the award. Having had some experience in Central Australia a few years ago I know the two main operators aren't paying the award but have had no problem sourcing pilots from their respective flying schools. Imagine if they both decided to suddenly pay the award, do you really think anything would change, doubt it, maybe more money over the staff bar! I think the staff at the respective companies would prefer to see the money spent on better equipment or fixing existing equipment so they could do their jobs properly. It would also have the added advantage of giving the staff a sense of pride, showing them that their employers are just as committed to providing a quality product as the staff are. The effect that pride can have on work ethic cannot be underestimated.

I certainly don't agree with paying under the award but I just don't see any incentive for employers to pay it other than helping them sleep at night knowing they are doing the right thing.

Sleep well Twistgrip.....
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby chicken » Sat Feb 28 2009, 03:07

Hi guys

I am MID range CPL student 29 years old from Fremantle , I am a full qualified ships First officer.

some thing that bugs me about this PAY issue is that ( maybe someone has mentioned this prior ) but these helicopters are worth Zero it they sit on the ground and do not fly!! so Why dont PAY someone to fly it? is there a UNION for pilots?

so as becoming a LOW 105 HOUR Helicopter pilot Flying my first job in a egg beater, I am concerned that i have just paid out 60k plus living costs + CASA theory exams + food and living expenses while training 80k+ ( to live my dream) all for a Operator to take full advantage of me by saying that im worth 14$ per hour because im new to the industry ok i can understand some of that , but i have surely shown my commitment to the industry by purging 80k!! Operators need to look at the big picture, yes you are getting a low hour pilot,But that machine is worthless unless it flys!
what i have read is shocking 18k - 25 k per year 4 words "BEING, TAKEN ,ADVANTAGE, OF" not cool Oc:= , "Wheels" the difference between 16 yr and 30 yr not being able to dig holes is IQ :shock:
the difference between a 16 yr and 30yr flying helicopters is 14yrs of LIFE EXPERIENCE big difference! :twisted:

one other thing i was thinking about when reading this forum is WHY has Australia taken the road to get LOW HOUR pilots into fly tourists around, hardly seems safe to me does it! heres your licence here is you family from perth and here are the keys for the R44 now fly them down the beach for a picnic , get my picture ,weird that after all CASA stands for SAFETY wise they allow this !
Is it a lack of other positions available? maybe
some other country's (which i wish i had gone to to do my training) use a mentoring system ( that sounds lot safer to me) Big choppers Medium, single, twins with a co pilots seat why not learn from the best someone that has 5000hours on twins? CASA?

Maritime Industry if you are NEW you WILL start on min 3000 euro per month full expense paid ZERO TAX 5 months on, 1 month off all the booze you can drink even if you cant tie a bowline at least youll be used to clean @ 3000 euro . sounds good doesnt it makes me wonder why i fly!

Im not really looking forward to finding that first job , But I can survive for the first year on 18k and if need be then the second as i said maybe someone can answer some of my Q. whats the best way to get a CO pilots seat , I have CPL IREX AND 3 ATPL subs but only 40 hours?

VENTING cheers Chicken
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby nathan_m » Sat Feb 28 2009, 03:40

chicken wrote: is there a UNION for pilots?


There was a union for rotary pilots, but they have shut shop now.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Skid Bighter » Sat Feb 28 2009, 03:48

Chicken,

I think you will find that fresh CPL holders end up flying R44's on scenics because it has a difficulty level of zero, there is almost no thought required to do laps around one area numerous times a day and it is far from stimulating so anyone who has a few hours built up and can be trusted to do something else (anything else), will be difficult to coax back into the 44 to do laps.

It would be nice to be mentored for a while but I think you should be capable of scenic flights straight out of your licence with a quick familiarisation of the area, commentary and company ops manual/proceedures.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby hand in pants » Sat Feb 28 2009, 06:28

Chicken,
Sounds like you did no homework before "purging" your money. Not smart.
I don't agree that the helicopter is worth is worth nothing sitting on the ground. The machine is worth money even doing nothing, it MAKES money flying. It is worth nothing in the hands of someone who is not competant.
There is NO difference between a 16 year old pilot and a 30 year old pilot, straight out of school with a fresh new CPLH and they are equal, helicopter experience is the key, not life experience.
We do have a mentoring system, the mentor in ALL companies is the Chief Pilot. His job is to assess you on arrival and then if you meet his requirements, he will feed you into the system as he sees fit. And he will want to see what comman experience you have. I flew with a high hour co-pilot some years ago, just out of a major off shore operator, and let me tell you he was not very impressive even with 2000 plus hours as co-pilot in big twins. No command experience. This meant I was stuck sitting with him for some time until I could see him improving enough to do simple charter/joy flight operations by himself.
I don't think you should bring casa into this arguement/discussion, they aren't interested in them, we don't want them involved in this issue. Safety is not their priority, raising money is, look at the cost of doing buisness with them.............
My advice is to suck it up big time and go for command time, take a second seat job only if you know the company has a plan to get you into the command seat.
Hope I have answered some of your questions.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby six-three Bravo » Sat Feb 28 2009, 08:43

HIP,

where do I start. if you really think a 16 year old pilot is equal to a 30 year pilot because of equal flying experience. You got to be kidding me. A great attitude.

I will refrain from making it more personal.

i think this is the longest thread in bladderslapper history. HIP I await your mature response.

Cheers

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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby made4trade » Sat Feb 28 2009, 09:46

A 16 year old pilot will fly just as good as a 30 year old, maybe even better, but I think the point is that he will not be able to multitask as well as the later. People with life experience have adjusted their lifestyle to their income and will find this adjustment to their new role most difficult, especially if they have a family.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Pear Head » Sat Feb 28 2009, 11:06

Twistgrip - well done, mate. You will be able to pick the cream of the newbie pilots, and they will look after you in return.

Skid Bighter - Difficulty level zero? Then why are people still killed doing it? A heavy Astro in a 6,500DA is more than difficulty level zero. Confined areas into showgrounds in controlled airspace, in an aircraft you have less than 20 hours in? Difficulty level zero? You are allowed to do laps with passengers after 35 hours (GFPT). What about the jobs where the hardest thing is to stay awake (three hour ferries with rig pigs)? What difficulty level is that?

To remain sort of on topic... My first job, I didn't see my boss for 2 months after starting, didn't even have an interview. I was paid $16,000 p/a with food and board thrown in and making the company $1,100 per hour on a 44. I loved every minute of it. It certainly didn't take 6 months to ramp up. I was happy for the experience; he was happy for the phat profits.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Sat Feb 28 2009, 11:19

My turn to be pedantic
16 year old is ideal for me as an apprentice plumber

18yo to get CPL(h)
Both Pilots should have the same ability at 110 hrs
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby six-three Bravo » Sat Feb 28 2009, 11:56

Can we get to page 6? There is far more to being a pilot than ability. i once flew with 23 year old pilot who could fly rings around anyone. 3000 hours at 23 year old. one saturday morning we were both pre flighting our machines at the hanger, he was looking a bit seedy. i said "joe what time did you get to bed last night?' he replied i haven't been to bed. then he proceeded to jump in his machine and go do 11 hours mustering. 2 weeks later he says to me "i scared the s#!t out of myself today!' I asked him why. he said he fell asleep on a ferry. The point is at 23 i was out partying all night long as well but i wasn't flying helicopters. by the way he was a top bloke and he survived his youth. At the time I was 42 and getting a good 8 hours sleep a night and drinking light beer. At that age i knew better and knew i wasn't indestructable. I'll tried to not judge him because he was a top bloke and had helped me heaps and he had heaps more hours than me. But who was doing the right thing by the operator and who was the better pilot? he had more earning potential to the operator than me.

cheers

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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Master Cylinder » Sat Feb 28 2009, 21:08

63B,

Good post. Yep, there's a good example of something not easily quantifiable...maturity. No license for that. Anyway, as a guy who's also survived his youth, everything in your post rang true....good one.

MC

(Nope, still not on to page 6)
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby hand in pants » Sun Mar 1 2009, 00:56

63, so you just let him fly off risking the machine, himself and possibly the contract if there was an accident. Looks like your maturity showed on that day.......
People are talking about being responsible and mature and doing the right thing and you have a shot at my attitude.
Do you actually think that being 30 you are better at flying than someone who is 16. If that's the case you best get onto the military, you might need to explain that all of their young blokes flying F18's and the like should be replaced with old blokes with plenty of "life experience".
Done any instructing lately. I'd rather get a young bloke as a student than an older one. Young bloke is easier to teach, less bad habits, finds the theory a bit easier as he is not long out of school, less of the "I know what I'm doing", less of the frustration when they can't master a sequence after the first go. In general you can teach both but the young bloke will be easier. As an instructor...................
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Izzy Fullashat » Sun Mar 1 2009, 01:36

HIP wrote:

About 6 months to get a newbie pilot up to speed CPL ops,Op manual & general CHTR work.

Now Mr Pants your saying that your an instructor if you had a position for a newbie wouldn't it be good business sense to train a CPLH student wilst doing his licence......... :roll: .

Hes now paying you to train him up to CPL standard as specified in the 105 hr syllabus and also your pilot position standard. You dont even have to pay him below the award. You get what you want, student gets what he dreamnt about, licence and job with your knowledge past onto him. Your not wasting another 6 months of your time. Or have I missed something.

Wheels good to see your finally comeing around as to if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

MR PANTS BOSS I COULD DO WITH ANOTHER BAG OF NUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Izzy (I still could be)
OHH!!! CRAP I still cant come up with a catchy saying!!!!!!!
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hand in pants
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby hand in pants » Sun Mar 1 2009, 01:51

Izzy, I''l be quick, when I comes to work for me I teach him to do the work, not to fly, someone has already done that.
Did you get your licence and have the ability to conduct the job from phone call to Completion of paperwork, I doubt that very much.......................

And Izzy,

"Izzy (I still could be)" starting to sound like it.....................
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!

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