Wages - Operators have your say

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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CYHeli
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Wages - Operators have your say

Postby CYHeli » Mon Feb 23 2009, 02:52

This is a link to the Workplace Authority web site. http://www.workplaceauthority.gov.au

Since the operators are the ones within this industry who choose not to pay the award because they believe that the pilots standard is not worthy of the award, this is your chance to have a say.

Call for submissions to 2009 Minimum Wage Review
The Australian Fair Pay Commission is inviting written submissions from interested groups and individuals in the lead-up to the July 2009 Minimum Wage Decision.

The Commission is interested in receiving a wide range of views on issues relevant to minimum wages. Submissions need not be lengthy and can address some or all of the following criteria:

the capacity for the unemployed and low paid to obtain and remain in employment
employment and competitiveness across the economy
providing a safety net for the low paid
minimum wages for junior employees, employees to whom training arrangements apply and employees with disabilities that ensure those employees are competitive in the labour market.
The 2009 Minimum Wage Review will also include consideration of the impact of the Commission's previous Minimum Wage Decision, as announced in July 2008.

The closing date for submissions is Friday, 20 March 2009.

Further details regarding the 2009 Minimum Wage Review and how to make a submission can be found at
http://www.fairpay.gov.au or by calling 1300 139 699.

Please click here for more information about the Federal Minimum Wage and to access pay scale summaries
http://www.workplaceauthority.gov.au/graphics.asp?showdoc=/PayAndConditions/PayandConditionsIndex.asp

I understand and appreciate that student pilots are taught to pass an exam and are not trained to be line pilots, they therefore have to have time and money spend on them to bring them up to flight line ability. (This includes company policy and the various office processes, etc) Since most operators that employ low/no hour pilots don't pay what they are supposed to, but instead pay what they think the pilot is worth, then move the goal posts. Use the system to your advantage.
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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Freewheel
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Freewheel » Mon Feb 23 2009, 03:20

CY,

Beat me to the punch - and comprehensively so!

I wonder if any employer is interested enough to post their submission here for discussion?
Never forget that some people exist purely as a warning to others.
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 08:09

The wages debate will go on until the horse has gone from being dead to turning into horse Jerky.

This is my response as an employer not in the Aviation but soon will be!!

NOTE: not Aviation. I am in the Building industry. I do deal with wages and wage disputes constantly.
This is very long winded but it frustrates me both ends Employer and Employee read on!!

Firstly all I can say is Build Your Network.

If I had a hanger and a number of aircraft and was looking for a pilot that was going to do that bit more for me, would I employ the guy that just walks in and demands a price or do I give a kid a go on a lower wage that is willing to sweep the hanger wash the chopper whatever cut grass and slowly slide into a position from Hanger rat to Chief pilot”
And I would not be advertising for a position if I had a guy or gal on the floor, answering phones, loading helicopters ect, or just generally labouring, with the opportunity of slowly building hours. Where do you look??

A labourer per hour employed for general labour work hourly rate is $14.31 per hour unless that labourer is working for a plumber then that rate is $24:00 per hour, and there are no junior rates.

Way up the “it’s going to take me 5 years” to get some real hours up and get those good jobs with I’m to good for that sweep the hanger job or drive in the bosses HOS car and take out supplies or whatever is required to get the hours up with the good dollars. “Why can’t I take the chopper”

When the time comes I will employ at minimum labourer’s wages every low time pilot I can afford, and put them to work, give them the opportunity to be in the hanger, out refuelling whatever is needed. Clean the toilets, make the coffee, hey how about cut the grass. Then the ones that hang around long enough to get some hours in there log book at the lower rate. Train them for what the company needs, Sling, night, muster, whatever and then Up them to pilots wages and put them in the good positions. This to me is a better method of finding who is going to be a dedicated pilot working for me. Give them time to get there hands dirty.

I’m not saying I want a guy or gal to work and slave for 500 hours of log book time. I’m saying give them a go, get them up and when a position is there or created for them give them a proper go. And a proper wage.

Comparing Pilots to Plumber and Mechanics is like Peas and carrots, These guys get there hours up in an apprenticeship for four years. Knee deep in s&%t literally, Pay is about the same, abused, the site joke, ect ect. My bosses favourite saying was
DDDIIIIGGGG!!! And
RUN DON’T WALK!!!! SAFETY DOESN’T TAKE TIME OFF!!!!
AAHHHHHH WHAT THE!!!!! )c/
RRRRUUUUNNNNN!!!
And
what’s the matter it is gold you have your hands in it just smells like s%$t LHFAO !! Oc:=
I found plenty of nuggets mind you! “Side tracked”

Starting on about $300:00 per week, the boss pays for the schooling and your time there total time of 24 weeks over three years. The pay increases up to $605.78 per week at the end of your third year. “This is the year you give back to the boss for being such a nice bloke and teaching you how to do a job”
Wow and you get to eat at your girlfriends house because you ate the fridge at you mums house.
Then if you decide to be registered you get to pay your registration as most professions do and have the boss again provide everything for you like a ute power tools ect ect.

Pilots on the other hand go and do all the training “out of there own pocket” Have minimum experience 105 to 125 hours and want to be paid big bucks!! This is not an Excavator lady add gents, it is a helicopter.
(I got fully ticketed up on 100+ ton in less than 12 hours).
Same in the computer industry, You go to Uni come out paying 40 to 60 grand and land a job that is your first job making 30 or 35 a year.
I am not condemning it and I am not condoning it but this is how it works, If the company keeps paying the s%$t money once you have the experience or less than minimum labour rates “$14.31” look for another employer and don’t leave until you have one.
Build your network.
I have picked up many short term workers both tradies and laboures when needed because they have been short changed by other employees and those customers suddenly came across too and have been loyal good paying customers, creating the work needed to put these guys and girl on!!

Build your network, Build your network, build your network, and don’t forget those other pilots the ones that fly the planes to. That is the path they have chosen!! I build my network in many industries daily with cards, fridge magnets, cups, pen’s, stubbie holders my name & family brand on it and my business, even plastered my ugly mug on some but build your network.
The money will come!!!!
What better way to get your name to an employer than your ugly mug, your name, mobile phone, on the cup of coffee he or she is drinking.
Break the one he is using if that puts your cup in there!!
Network.
It is at least 5 years of working to the good jobs.

If you get one before that you built your network and put the extra hours in to make up the five years.
Any industry it is 5 years!!

After all that!
No time pilot “less than 200hrs” to me your worth $15:00 per hour.
Now show me you want to be paid more “and show me” and I will!!
If you cannot you will soon be up the road!!
Ray McCooney
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Ray McCooney » Mon Feb 23 2009, 08:51

Wheels,

This is not the building game. The Helicopter pilots award says $42,000 in year one. That's it mate.

We know most companies don't pay it but DON'T compare Pilots to apprentices. I got my licence, got a job and was out working doing scenic flights on my own making good money for the company that gave me a start. I received a check flight and two line training flights. The machine was making top dollar for the Company. You can't do that with an apprentice builder, you need to be with them. It is so different.


Are you in the Aviation industry yet?

Regards
Ray

I cant help myself posting on these wage threads.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby made4trade » Mon Feb 23 2009, 09:46

I myself am from the building industry and currently still a student. All I expect is that when I finish my CPL is I get a fair go and not be taken advantage of, especially when I have just forked out over $60,000. I am not asking for top dollar but just the award, your a Chopper Pilot for christ sake and you have worked your butt off to recieve your licence, don't you think your worth a little more than a McDonalds employee. If no-one wants to take newbies where are the pilots of the future going to come from? I know I will have to do menial tasks at first as most newbies will and that's not the problem. If I have to relocate with a family how am I to support them, pay for food and accomadation on a wage that resembles social security. We live in the great country of OZ, not India. Fair go guys!
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby sparky22 » Mon Feb 23 2009, 09:53

I agree 100% made4trade
Assumption is the mother of all f%#k ups...
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 09:55

I fully understand Ray
Was your first week flying I don't think so, if it was all good **^**

The company was making the coin off you so they "as mentioned" should be paying you the full coin and not hanger rat wages :D
if it is a one "here and there" flight to keep your hand in and I'm working on getting more work properly then stick it out and build your network.
as you mentioned
they had a job that you were fully qualified to do and they were making full dollars the same if you had 2000 hours, so they should be paying right and not taking advantage of you.
and I do know it is not the building industry but it still takes about 5 years to land the good jobs on a consistant walk out walk in jobs.

If it is not tell me how to from no flight time "less than three hours" do I get that job on the fireline fighting fires in a Bell with a belly tank or sling I don't mind. then in the winter flying tourists up threw Wonangatta in the vic alps dropping off deer hunters and hikers mount Baw Baw threw to Bulla dropping off skiers.
Because this is what I put my arm in places where no one else will
To get just this.

Must say this really quiet but I would pay to do this type of work.

And network before training during training after training. This is a good medium too!!

And I can't help my self either.

Wage disputes have caused me an endless hang over from the amount of bourbon spent on afterwards (glad the apprentice had licence)
Union disputes "I'm close to one at the moment." it's causing endless sleepless night's
in the end fair days work for a fair days pay!!
and $42,000 sweet I could live on that!!
Sign me up just got to work on the ticket
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 09:57

Ray I'm not in the industry yet!!
Working on it Dunny Hugging!!
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Skywork » Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:03

Treat people and pay them what you would expect at the same time in your career, If you pay pilots s#!t they dont owe any employer nothing. It cost nothing as a operator to do a endorsment on the way to jobs if you have a instructor on staff and maybe that pilot may go the extra mile for you. And I dont want to hear it cost to much to do that as I have done plenty of endoresments that way , in fact I even go further when I have a pilot crewing for me and put the duals in where I can and pass on as much as I can to them on ferrys and on jobs and I have always got it back..
Oh and by the way my lowest paid person in my operation, eg ground crew/loader operator gets equal to 60k a year plus all the other s#!t that goes with it, and would not expect a pilot to be less off than the ground crew.

Happy flying
Last edited by Skywork on Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:29, edited 1 time in total.
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:05

made4trade agree 100% fair go
a fair days work if your doing the same as the 1000 hr and he is on $42,000 you to should be.
you have also done the apprenticeship once before!! I'd gather
What is the money like? Pretty good ha you have a tool that not many low timer's have :D
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:26

skyworks you are agreeing with me in a very negitive way.
From an employers perspective any keen kid trying to get a start, if an employer likes what they see they are not going to turn away potential, give them something to chew on and slip them into a position.
If I can make the money I pay the good dollas.
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:28

and ray if maybe I kick this horse I'll get him to move :D
Skywork
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Skywork » Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:31

WHEELS
General post to every one not directed at you or anyone, Have corrected the post to read a bit better.
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:35

I only read it as negitave all cool if I just had a fan here
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 10:44

Skywork
Skywork wrote: in fact I even go further when I have a pilot crewing for me and put the duals in where I can and pass on as much as I can to them on ferrys and on jobs and I have always got it back..

tell me when you step out with of the chopper with the low timer that you have just passed on your knowledge to was it worth getting up in the morning??

Are you not getting paid right to do the best job money can buy??
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby godfather007 » Mon Feb 23 2009, 11:13

Wheels.. You need to go flying to calm your self down.

Aviation a bitch and a beauty. and just to mention the person who gets to hold a CPL(H) or (P) may be a labour, but in this world we are refered to as Pilots.

Good luck with buying your flying or landing that first start. :cool_dc:
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 11:16

For all those who employ people out there.
this is just an example of what I mean!!
you have a 19 YO kid with his pants hanging around his knees hat on sidways walk in and ask if you have any work 500 hours in his log book with an "I want this much money" and you know you have somthing in the works what do you say.
"Give me a Resume and I'll ring you if something comes up" Oc:=
And forgive me if i offend.
Another young Kid of 19 - 25 guy Girl whatever neatly dressed comes in so keen polite 110 hrs what do you do???
Resume
ring the school talk to the cfi, you know straight away from the tone in there voice.
I have no pilots positions available but we have a hanger rat job.
You call out to the reception person and ask them to get a uniform on that kid.
How many started there carreer like this

How many actual employers of any industry employ like this.
Wheels
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Wheels » Mon Feb 23 2009, 11:52

godfather007
I do need to get down there and at least smell the fumes
many appoligies Pilots
I also definitly need to get flying. I just need to get out there!!

Cash first!! don't want to have to stop half way that would be worse than not starting!!!

I usually sit on the side and just read the forum's to see what is going on and keep out of Pilot on Pilot talk just reading
But wages paid and wages made is two way street for me as I have been on both sides of the fence employed upto 12 employees back down to just myself. My workers always were paid above award when we made good bucks and on award when we didn't.
Have also been on the other end of the stick and not paid for overtime up to and over 40 hours per week over four weeks. the person wasn't paying tax, super, or anyone else for that matter. total of about 200hrs over the time I worked there.
also paying $6:00 per hour under award.(didn't know what it was at the time) should have been about 17 per hour if i recall right.
Young and dumb!!
fair go I agree.
in about a weeks time I will be entering the debate with unions again on pay on a job I have quoted for.
Not saying Unions are good or bad just not looking forward to the wasted day "Union People"
(Want to be paid better Perform and negociate with me not threw a union)
and it is wages as I keep saying I will pay a man for what he can make me. if he can only make me 120k for his labour or piloting in this case he will only be paid 60k ect. and the crew all come into it to. then there is machinery helicopter fueler ground crew the list goes on the girl who pays the wages all comes into it.
Mike is advertising for experenced.
What does he pay for senic work.
Anyway heading south tomorrow and I will stop past Jandakot and smell the fumes hopefully expand my network a little more.
Cheers all anything from actual operators with helicopters and your views
Skywork
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby Skywork » Mon Feb 23 2009, 12:01

s#!t wheels you have as bad as atitude as the some of the pilots you may be referring to, you must be taking your hard bum road that it took to get into the industry to the pilots that come in the door. Just remember the atitude displayed at the top filters down through to the hangar. I to got screwed when getting into this industry and when I got over being s#!t faced with everybody I was happier. The fact maybe I am now trying to stop people going through what I had to put up with. Maybe if we all gave a bit without the atitude against every body that come along the industry may change. (Just probably wasted my breath with that statement ) I give people a chance if they do the dirty on me as some have it comes back to bite them in the arse when someone asks me about them regarding employment.
And yes if I can pass on something to a pilot or I see him flying skilfully some where knowing I have helped him on his way It is good, and another thing as people now what I am like and what I am prepared to do they put in the effort and I have not got a shortage of good ground personal which keeps the helo productive and as 80%of all my work is contract it keeps the hourly rate up nearly twice that of normal which means $$$$$$$$$$$in the bank.And thats what business is all about so some of you guys should try it. Just ask yourself this Question if I pay well and treat people well and chuck in a bit of benefits and I can return more income per hour or have no trouble keeping clients because they see an well oiled and happy operation that saves them money would you do it or would you put up with a unhappy work force and after each job have to find a new client to replace the last one,First rule, IT IS EASIER TO KEEP A EXISTING CUSTOMER THAN TO FIND A NEW ONE.Hey but if everyone that does give any person whether they be a newbie or no so new bad or have a atitude towards them and spends all there time going on about the crap they have to go through and not go through instead of paying fairly and not have to be worrying about if they have a employee that is representing your company is doing there job they could be spending that time looking after there cystomers like I do , but then maybe not as it will make my search for more work harder.
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Re: Wages - Operators have your say

Postby hand in pants » Mon Feb 23 2009, 20:41

As CP of an AOC holder I am in the position to tell new pilots "no positions available".
If I was in a position to hire some one I would be hiring a person, this person would just happen to hold a CPLH. (and we are talking 105 hours here)
If this person was to accept the pay and conditions I was offering they would start work. If not, thanks for coming to see me. Next!
If this person was working for me, any endorsement in a new machine would be done properly, unlike some who think it can be done "on the job".
This person would do a comprehensive check flight/flights with me. They would then be gradually fed into my system, doing easy jobs with a little bit of flying included. They would then be allowed to help with quotes, help plan jobs, help get jobs organised and completed. This would take a new CPLH about six months of hard work and not a lot of flying and nothing like $42,000 a year while I'm teaching them these things. The reason for this is that I want my pilots to be able to do a commercial job from start to finish, on their own and correctly with very little or no input from me. They should know the company operations manual back to front, like I do, they should know what the requirements of a job entail, fuel needs and availablity, logistics, how can we do the job efficiantly but within the legal requirements, can we actually do the job, do we have the aircraft, the skill base, the ancillary equipment. A pilot needs a lot more than just a licence before the get anything like the award wage. They need to be able to EARN their money. And because you have just spent $60,000 doesn't mean you can demand a specific wage. You get paid what you are worth, and some dick in an office who more than likely is ex military and who couldn't get a job in civvie street decides that this will be the minimum wage for a boggie pilot doesn't mean you will get it.
Somebody needs to do the math on this. What is the profit from operating an R44 on tourist work. Then work out how much this so called award is and find out how many hours someone needs to fly a year to cover the cost of a new pilot. But don't forget to work out the cost of running the company.
Any bean counters out their game enough.............

And stop comparing pilots to brick layers, tradesmen, doctors and all the others, we left those jobs because we wanted to do something else for a living. Either learn to live with your choise or choose again.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!

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