Airborne Video Recorders, Cameras, and Systems

whats acceptable for pilots pay?

What's a job in helicopters pay? Does it pay? Why do you get paid more than me?
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aaron
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whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby aaron » Sat Jun 27 2015, 03:54

Was offered a survey job for 3-6 months. $50/MR.
Survey job where operator hops out with gravity meter and takes readings.
Pay offer no retainer and only paying for collective time, which on these types of surveys is approx 50%of engine run time.
3 pilots 1 helicopter, on rotation doing half days.
So I guess 2 half days and a day off.
So on a good day might get 3hours collective time.
So $150 for 6 hrs at the controls.
Over the 3 days works out to be $100 per day less tax.
When not flying, no pay!
Question is; what is acceptable for a contract pilot?
I have survey experience and almost 700hrs.
Travel costs would be reimbursed, accommodation and food provided out remote on a cattle station.
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hand in pants
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby hand in pants » Sat Jun 27 2015, 04:05

aaron, that sounds like a great deal if you're an idiot.

If nobody takes the jobs with lousy pay, the operator will have no choice but to up the pay.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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mdav
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby mdav » Sat Jun 27 2015, 04:39

Another employer ripping off pilots, typical.

Not a great deal there. If your desperate then do it but I wouldn't for that coin. Seems there taking advantage of low time guys flying a R44 I'm guessing. $50 mr is fine as long as there is a retainer to go with it.
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Evil Twin
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Evil Twin » Sat Jun 27 2015, 05:30

That's an absolute rip off mate.

From what you're saying it's at a remote location and you'll only be getting 30% of the paid activity and only paid while carrying out that activity with no opportunity to supplement that income. Walk away....
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aaron
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby aaron » Sat Jun 27 2015, 06:19

Don't get me wrong, they were open to negotiations after I asked for $50/ hr engine run time.This is the email I received back.
This company is a helicopter pilot recruitment agency.
I have 300hrs survey work experience and almost 700hrs Total time.

As per our phone conversation this morning the Remuneration Package with our company is as follows:
1) $50 per MR Flight Hour
2) Travel (airfares & accommodation) costs are covered by CHS during your transit periods (to include Melbourne-Darwin flights)
3) Superannuation 9.5%
4) Workcover

We are happy to negotiate with you, taking into account your low flying hours, we can offer you the following Remuneration Package:
1) $30 per Flight Hour
2) You will cover all travel costs associated with your travels to the closest Airport to where you will be working. We will cover travel (airfare/bus/vehicle only) from the closest airport to the jobsite.
3) Superannuation 9.5%
4) Workcover
5) Induction / commencement for this job is Wednesday, 1/7/15. We will require you to be in Katherine NT on Tuesday, 30/06/15 for pick up.

Please feel free to call me anytime to discuss. We will only hold this available position for your consideration until tomorrow, as we do have other pilots in the same position as you, who are keen to start.

Thank you for considering working with us.
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Evil Twin » Sat Jun 27 2015, 07:02

Thats not negotiation that's rearranging the deck chairs.

The statements he makes about your low hours and having other pilots waiting are designed to play on your insecurities so that you'll accept the "deal" they're offering. As a low hour pilot you won't be making them any less per hour. You will probably cost them a little more in insurance but not very much I expect as you have 700 hrs already plus some survey experience and it's only a 44 after all. You're not going to get many high hour pilots apply and far fewer work for the terms on offer.

It's still a lousy offer, and they only want you to accept less so that they will make more.
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Capt Hollywood
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Capt Hollywood » Sat Jun 27 2015, 08:15

What they said!

I've never worked for an hourly rate mate but they both sound like terrible deals! Even if you did a solid days flying and did 8hrs at the higher rate, you're still only getting $400/day. These days that would be the bare, really bare, minimum for a contract pilot.

They are using the 'low hour' line, the fact that you WANT to fly, and the threat of others taking the job to press you into accepting the conditions. The fact that they will accept low hour pilots, and with the flying not sounding overly complicated, one can expect that the pay rate will generally be toward the low end, but in my opinion that low end should start at $400/day. Based on your initial post you'll only be working 5 days a week so at $400/day you'll be invoicing them for $2000 per week. Remember that the taxman man could take the best part of half of that at the end of the next financial year!

Check that the superannuation is on top of the day rate too and not included in the rate.

If they can't pay $400/day for a pilot then they're not pricing the job adequately and are relying on underpaying pilots to come in on budget.

CH 8)
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby HELIQ » Sat Jun 27 2015, 08:30

Tell them there dreaming
Firefish
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Firefish » Sat Jun 27 2015, 09:46

$400 per day as a contract pilot with 700 hours? Dreaming!
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sat Jun 27 2015, 12:03

Refer to current post relating to Broome Helicopters underpaying pilots and ending up in a legal quagmire that will cost far more than it would have in doing the right and legal thing from day one.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8694
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Capt Hollywood » Sat Jun 27 2015, 12:16

Firefish wrote:$400 per day as a contract pilot with 700 hours? Dreaming!


You're probably right mate but only because we work in this moral vacuum that is the Australian General Aviation Industry. An industry that seems to pride itself on abusing those that want to join it. An industry where it is the norm for companies to simply disregard Award conditions and basic employee rights in favour of illegal arrangements enforced by nothing more than bullying and standover tactics. This company may not be doing anything illegal but they're looking for qualified pilots and they're are offering $30 per flying hour, that's just pathetic!
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Twistgrip » Sat Jun 27 2015, 16:58

I've Just returned home with the family after a long road trip but couldn't help responding to this one.

The rates that are going these days or should I say the rates on offer by some companies is nothing short of embarrasing and those involved should be ashamed at the very least.

Pay should be commensurate with experience, but to be taken advantage of is another matter altogether. Gravity survey is an example and I have to agree with Hollywood on his comments.

Aaron, as a matter of interest, when I was doing Gravity in 2005/6 as a contractor I was getting $450 a day with all per diems and travel on top and at that stage I had a few thousand hours though, and was mostly in a 206 then the 44. pop;
"You can watch things happen, you can make things happen or you can wonder what happened"
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sat Jun 27 2015, 22:54

aaron wrote: Please feel free to call me anytime to discuss. We will only hold this available position for your consideration until tomorrow, as we do have other pilots in the same position as you, who are keen to start.

Thank you for considering working with us.


Agree with what ET said earlier. Essentially it is a veiled threat insofar as you either take it or leave it, but regardless of the disgracefully low rates on offer, if you don't take it they'll find some other poor bugger who will.

With all that said, it's tough when you're building hours and doubly difficult if you're without work. And to add to the tragedy which is often times the lower end of GA, if you don't accept the low pay someone most likely will.
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aaron
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby aaron » Sun Jun 28 2015, 01:35

You are right FF, someone will take it.
Probably not anyone that wants to earn a living.
I'm not taking the job.
I just wanted people in the industry to know this is a bad deal with these people trying to be pushy and make the pilot feel they must take it.
They made contact with me asking if I wanted a job and was last minute, so I guess who ever they had lines up thought it was also a bad deal and pulled out.
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sun Jun 28 2015, 02:24

If someone else has also pulled out maybe go back and offer them a rate to do the job that would be acceptable to you.

If you're not familiar with the award, which to be honest, is still quite low in general terms as far as rates of pay are concerned, it is the minimum that needs to be paid nonetheless.

Any company that hasn't done its sums and can't afford to pay the award, pay for required mandated maintenance, fuel at market rates etc etc have themselves an unsustainable business model. Pilots and staff in general should not be used to supplement a business owner by way of a reduction in their wages and conditions. Simple!

Good luck with whichever way you go.
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Evil Twin » Sun Jun 28 2015, 06:15

If you wouldn't mind, what is the name of this agency? Sounds like they may be clipping the ticket on the way through to the detriment of the poor sucker that takes the job.

I'm actually amazed that any helicopter company would even need to use an agency in the current climate.
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby CollectiveIssues » Sun Jun 28 2015, 06:42

What's acceptable for pilots pay?? Well the simple answer is anything above the award rate of pay.
This operator is clearly taking advantage of every pilot. The award at a minimum for the first year of service is $49,194 per annum. As a casual pilot, the employer must pay the pilot per "flying hour" (not MR hour) 1/800th of the annual salary. So that equates to $61.49/hr. As it is a casual position, there would also be a loading of 25% (as no leave etc is being accrued) so that makes the legal minimum rate of $76.86/hr.. ( a far cry more than the $50 MR, OR $30 engine hour being offered)
Also previous posts say that the days are "half days". Under the award, if the pilot is rostered for up to 4 hours, they must be paid for at least 2 hours flying time, and if they are being rostered for greater than 4 hours, they must be paid for at least 4 hours flying time, or if flying time is greater than 4 hours, the amount of flying time actaully performed.
This whole operation sounds like discrimination towards low hour pilots BIG TIME. It would be nice to see no pilots actaully take up their "offer" and then we all sit back and see how those helicopters get themselves off the ground.
If you are the pilot that does take on any position like this, don't forget to look further as well for any short cuts that they would be taking, e.g aircraft maintenance, flight and duty times etc. sounds like a recipe for disaster to me!!
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby UnObvious » Sun Jun 28 2015, 16:55

Just pull some collective on the ground and keep the clock running. pop;

Sounds like a dodgy company. Pretty rough that they're pulling the "low hour/there's others who want the job" card. I guess some people get off on that sort of power trip.
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Crackers » Mon Jun 29 2015, 05:43

If you really want to do something, then send a copy of the offer you were given to the fairwork ombudsman. You can do it anonymously. That offer is so ridiculously below the minimum standards of pay and conditions according to the pilots award, that it would be game over for the operator if he/she were investigated. They would most likely investigate beyond the terms of the complaint to establish prior intent to defraud employees.
The only way this mess will be cleaned up is if it starts at the bottom, operator by operator. I too was guilty, but at least my first job was not too far of the mark pay wise, although there was not even a contract in writing that I remember signing.

Good work collective issues. You have nailed the award rates correctly in an easy to understand way.
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Re: whats acceptable for pilots pay?

Postby Crusty » Mon Jun 29 2015, 05:58

Jeeez ! I got ripped off in 2007 on Gravity.
I only received $400 per day flying 1/2 days.
I would have thought $500 per day would be the norm at a minimum nowdays.

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