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Ex military V civilian background

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Ex military V civilian background

Postby skypig » Thu Sep 21 2017, 08:36

Every day I fly as part of a two pilot crew. A lot of the pilots I fly with are ex mil, and a lot aren't.
I honestly can't tell the difference.
(We all operate under the same Operations manuals, RFM and legislation.)

pop;

The title of this thread is also a warning.
I probably won't look here very often......
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Hello Pilots » Thu Sep 21 2017, 09:45

I like collecting medals
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby hand in pants » Mon Sep 25 2017, 00:26

Okay, seems nobody is willing to be honest other than Skypig and Hello Pilots.

I have worked with ex-military pilots and found them to be okay to a certain extent. As far as employing them goes, there are some very good pro's when it comes to the ex-military blokes.
They have a good work ethic, very good. Absolute confidence in the fact you could give one a specific task and you can be certain it will be done very well.
Their training is no better, and no worse than civil pilots. There are complete duds on both sides. Ex-mil are maybe a little bit more gung-ho than civil pilots, but sometimes that's not a bad thing.
You can be assured that ex-mil pilots will look after the machine as well as a civil pilot.
They are used to spending time away from the family. And the family is used to it as well.
They are pretty good at the paperwork side of things. They come from that type of operation.
There are other good things outside of the flying that make them worth employing. They generally don't mind a cold froffy beverage at the end of the day. And you know they won't overdo the whole thing unless it's required. They are good in a group or part of a team. This can be hard to find with the newer civil pilot.

There are however some cons with a lot of ex-mil pilots.
It takes some time to get the average ex-mil bloke to think like a commercial pilot. They need to understand that the boss is trying to earn money with the helicopter. Military doesn't do that. Boss gives you a job, just do it safely and in a timely manner. You also have to look after the client, he's the one paying for the aircraft and you. They especially have to realise that everything costs the boss. Everything. Most mil pilots just fly and do paperwork. Logistics of a job can be new to them. Yes they know about it and I'm sure discuss it before a job, but they don't actually arrange for the fuel, sort out the landing sites etc.
The average ex-mil bloke thinks because he's done a bit of everything, he's a wiz at the lot. And he's not. Years ago I sat in on the interview of an ex-mil bloke for an EMS position. He didn't do well. As far as he was concerned the fact that he had done "2 or 3 medivac flights", he knew all that there was about EMS. It was pointed out that he could well do his whole career's worth of medivac flying in one shift. It also turned out that he had lied on his application regarding his actual hour in command. And not just by a little bit. But this case would be the exception to the rule.
Ex-mil pilots are part of a huge organisation so when a task comes in a lot of people are involved, pilots do the flying and not much else. In our industry, the pilot tends to do the lot, everything from daily inspection, logistics phone calls, permissions or approvals, accommodation if required all the way through to the post flight inspection.
Ex-mil pilots are also told from the very beginning that they are the best of the best. And the truth is, they aren't. They're okay, but they aren't anything special. Same as us. We're okay and we get the job done and that's it.
Most civil pilots could do the military thing and most Ex-mil pilots can do the civil thing. We can all fly helicopters, some are average at best, some are good, some are very good, a few are bloody very good. The main difference is attitude and experience.
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Combustion Chamber » Mon Sep 25 2017, 01:11

.Most civil pilots could do the military thing and most Ex-mil pilots can do the civil thing. We can all fly helicopters, some are average at best, some are good, some are very good, a few are bloody very good. The main difference is attitude and experience.


Now this I agree with, especially 'attitude and experience'
Not one for gossip, but did you hear about the???
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby SICK HORSEY » Mon Sep 25 2017, 03:45

Some very good stuff there HIP, and I agree in the civvy environment we are all pretty much equals.... excusing the odd gumby that can't let go his past or work outside a tight system.

I have to disagree with with 'most civvy pilots can do the military thing' though.... without any appendage swinging intent!

I'm not sure a civvy could run a 10 acft NVG gunlift, co-ordinating time on targets, ground elements, artillery windows, close air support (Tiger/Hornet), contingency plans and low level nav without YEARS of intense training and knowledge. In this example, the pilot can be responsible for co-ordinating it all.... both beforehand on the ground, and then in the air. They do organize the fuel, they do organize the LZ, they do organize the accom... and a hell of a lot more! That's what mil recruits for, a certain type of guy.

I want to highlight again I'm not anti-civvy, but the lads that haven't been mil can't appreciate what it is. That, no one can argue.

My final point: I don't see too many mil guys on here teeing off at civvies re there background or abilities in there current employment.... unless some wind up muppet gets there attention.
What I do see is some civvies constantly bangin on about it.... I would ask why they feel the need? How about just appreciating that these guys have done something pretty cool that perhaps another guy hasn't! I personally have great respect for any long line pilot, why? Because I haven't done it, I don't understand what's involved in it, and it's a skill I'd like to have one day!

Cheers mate.

SH
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby kiwiflyer » Mon Sep 25 2017, 05:42

Difference is though the civvy guys arnt the ones banging on the military’s door looking for a job so why why would a civvy guy want to know how to run a NVG assault what ever in a tiger or a hornet as they arnt a civil type anyway.
If it’s all that good why do the military pilots want to bail and go civilian, why not stay and blow stuff up on NVGs ?.
I’d actually like to know.

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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby SICK HORSEY » Mon Sep 25 2017, 07:52

Can't accurately speak for the masses Kiwi, but after you've achieved what you wanted and had enough of the system, I reckon the better dollars/roster in EMS have a lot to do with it, especially with the family guys.

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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Practice » Mon Sep 25 2017, 14:04

hand in pants wrote:Ex-mil pilots are also told from the very beginning that they are the best of the best.


Bollocks.
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby FerrariFlyer » Mon Sep 25 2017, 15:27

So, it’s not like this in the military? 8)

https://youtu.be/Sfw338TbYoI

Horses for courses. Both backgrounds bring pros and cons to the table. In my still somewhat limited experience, attitude on the job has been the most important quality that anyone offers up to an employer.

That said, we’ve had this type of discussion before. Do we need to have it over again? Anyone remember this 'memorable' thread? :

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6779&hilit=military
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby hand in pants » Tue Sep 26 2017, 19:21

Practice, watched it for 4 years at Tamworth.
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Firefish » Tue Sep 26 2017, 23:37

You've sunk to a new low now guys. Congratulations. Oc:=
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Practice » Wed Sep 27 2017, 00:35

hand in pants wrote:Practice, watched it for 4 years at Tamworth.


you watched it? From the Westpac office? Real fly on the wall insight to the entire ADF pilot training continuum there.

I'm sorry but as someone who has first hand experience of BFTS and the Army Aviation Training schools, I can categorically say that students are not told anything of the sort. What they are told, is that they are extremely fortunate to be selected from the thousands of applicants that apply, and that laziness or a failure to keep up will see that opportunity wasted.

I don't agree with your statement that most civvy blokes could do the military thing. The failure rate sitting above 50% is testament to that and as SH has pointed out, being a military piot isn't just about the mechanics of flying. Lots of blokes get chopped before they even get to the helicopter school and another bunch after they have their wings but are found not to be able to apply their skills in a tactical environment.

There's clowns and good blokes of both backgrounds. Normally you can tell which is which without even getting close to a helicopter.
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby kandm » Wed Sep 27 2017, 03:18

Why do we feel the need to lie to ourselves? It's like comparing males and females.

Hand In Pants, you've obviously been around a bit and have had a few bad experiences. You just can't argue Civilian vs Military training. The Military has far, far better resources and training capability to produce a Pilot that is generally consistent and (there are always exceptions, always) of a high standard with quals that convert well to an EMS or Offshore environment eventually (read MEPIC, NVG, IFR, SAR etc). Civilian pilots are wildly inconsistent and normally have few available options to allow them to progress into the twin-engine game. Offshore, SAR or MPT co-pilot. Yes, there are exceptions.

The questions that should be asked is not 'who is better at what'; it is what choices has that person made to get themselves in such a position. Even people coming out of the military most of the time will be well short of the required hours to walk into an EMS or Offshore Captains gig (yes, there are exceptions). There is a balanced mix of civilian and military drivers in each and every Offshore, SAR and EMS base in the country.

Some tips for ANY up and coming pilot; plan ahead for the end goal and don't keep chasing it. It's a rough industry no matter who you are. Network and don't be a dick. Treat people with some courtesy and don't burn your bridges. Don't chase cattle for 10 years if you want to fly EMS. Don't do an Ag rating if you want to really want to fly Offshore. Keep studying and challenge yourself. Don't accept mediocrity or make excuses for sloppiness in your ability, behaviour or appearance. Find a role model and keep talking to them to find out how they got where they did. Network and don't be a dick! Finally, take some responsibility for your actions. It is not the military guy that has stolen your EMS job when you have been flying a Jetranger around in Day VFR conditions for 10 years.
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby muppet » Wed Sep 27 2017, 04:38

Ok, time to bite.

Whichever clever wag on this thread said there are d!cks in the military and d!cks in the civvy world summed it up pretty well. About half our pilot group is ex Military, great guys, safe pilots and very humble to boot. That said, there are some who struggle to convert to life without someone planning their day for them. And there are some who display a little arrogance because they may have become too accustomed to being saluted... And then there is some envy among us civvy whackers because we had to pay our way in blood and we learnt to fly in Robbies while they chuffed around in IFR turbines on the taxpayer's dime.

This is all understandable, but where it turns awkward is if the ex-Mil guy thinks he is better because he has been more highly trained (second bit fair to say I think, certainly not the first necessarily). But flying is more than performing tricks for the assessor, so the civvy guy may have the edge on resourcefulness or using his initiative. Cos often that is all he had to go by in his career. Again, all this is subjective and depends on the folk in question. Some civilian pilots I have seen would have benefitted from a good dose of military training as well! The Military guys are good at stuff cos they got paid to do it over and over. And over. Just that parts of that training involve different stuff to GA.

One area that does threaten us non-Mil spec fellows, is the power of networking. Civilian pilots come from, let's say, a hundred different operators. Ex Mil guys come from one. So their network strength is far superior. Which means nepotism threatens at every turn. How often do you see a 'guy I know from the Air Force' get the nod. They look after their own. And help each other to find jobs. Hard to blame 'em for that, yet irksome it remains. The candidate usually has the specs for say, EMS (NVIS, IFR, Winch) and then a good word is put in from an incumbent, rinse and repeat and suddenly half your pilots have very shiny boots.

That is threatening. Understandable, but still a threat to the rest of us for sure, because we find ourselves excluded. Talk to anyone in the UK EMS or Police Sector. "Which squadron were you with old boy?" comes before "Would you like some sugar in your coffee". And often CASA & CAA are stacked full of ex-Mil guys which reinforces the perceived threat factor.

Anyhoo, not sure if that will help or wind someone up. If the latter, get over yourself, we are supposed to unite as flappy brethren, not snipe at each other as is too often the wont for chopper pilots. Of our pilots, half being well ironed and half with shirts a little scruffy, nobody stands out as all-round better than anyone else. Which is a good thing I reckon. But I am quietly hoping our next guy on will be a civvy. Just to restore some balance to the force (the Jedi one, not the military one).
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby flyhuey » Wed Sep 27 2017, 07:04

Skypig
A lot of the pilots I fly with are ex mil, and a lot aren't.
I honestly can't tell the difference.

Simon, surely you remember the difference. I was there for you. I believe I provided you the best support I could muster -back in 2005.

All of you who have contributed to this thread, except the military guys, are making gross assumptions and generalisations about ADF pilots, as you would not have a clue about overseas, military aviation.

From this thread, clearly you have nil clue about what goes on in the military, from the first day of training. Read Robert Mason's, "Chickenhawk", for a hint . . . and his description does not do it justice.

I served 13.5 years in the military, 10 of it, as a pilot.

Our class were all "prior service" and largest proportion of older guys. I was not yet 24.

I saw half my classmates "washed-out" throughout the 44 weeks for myriad cause, many just resigned. We lost some really great guys to be around, sitting in the hallway, shining our shoes and boots and talking amongst ourselves, or polishing the brass drains and scrubbing the toilets together. One guy we lost gave us our Class Motto, "No Pain, No Gain". That former sergeant served two tours in Viet Nam, as a Special Forces Ranger. The toughest of the tough, both mentally and physically. Washed out! My classmates and I looked up to him, respected the true soldier he was, that we needed to be. What chance did I stand?

Could you stand with the back of your head, shoulder blades, bum and heels against the block wall, of the barracks hallway, at 05:30, in your underwear, with an Officer so close you can smell the coffee and cigarettes on his breath and his spittle hitting your eyelids as he shouts obscenities, and reinforces just how precarious your existance is there. Before breakfast, before class, before flying lessons have even begun. Then, scramble to make up your bed, straighten your items in your wall locker, for inspection, gingerly put on your freshly pressed and starched uniform so as not to put a wrinkle in it, and dare not scuff your boots, go out for inspection and not one pocket had better be unbuttoned, then go for morning run and exercise, before breakfast, meanwhile two other officers are up in the barracks going through your wall locker and randomly tossing everything onto the floor and your bed, too.

One guy had a Snickers candybar amongst his 6 inch rolled underwear and socks . . . He was "washed out". Another guy sustained an injury, during our morning exercises and he was washed out.

I was the first Class Leader, so I held that position for two weeks longer than everyone else. The Class Leader was solely responsible for every other classmate and their deviations and transgressions from standards as proscribed. When we got punished, it was en masse. There was a large square concrete helipad, referred to as the "Think Tank". One fine day, our TAC Officer took out his frustraions and disappointments with our class, marched us to the Think Tank, to face inward on all four sides, ordered us to the "Front Leaning Rest" position (pushup) to contemplate our transgressions, we did push ups until many a thud was heard, one after the other, as my classmates heads and faces hit the concrete when they passed out. Defying my TAC Officer, I ordered my classmates to their feet and back to the barracks to clean up and reget ready for class. I remained to do more pushups and running around, after that. My TAC officer finally released me and told me to get my bum to class. I did. I was late. I had no shower, wore the same stinking, sweaty utility uniform. I could write a book, just on Flight School. What did you do to earn your wings?

And, this psychological and physical "conditioning" persisted, unrelentingly, throughout the 44 weeks, including during flight training.

Think any here amongst you could tough it out?

Regarding:
chuffed around in IFR turbines on the taxpayer's dime
. . . I started in TH-55 (Lycoming O-360 recip. Hughes), nearly four decades ago, during military flight training. I can remember my Primary Instructor's name and face, to this day. We either met the standard or we didn't. The military would not just keep throwing $$$ and hours at you, until you caught on how to hover over a spot, or navigate over a featureless ocean of trees. The Flying Instructors were highly experienced, mostly combat veterans . . . None of this building flying hours at someone else's expense, blind leading the blind bullsh!t. And, that was just flight training.

There was more flight training once a military flight training graduate got to his/her unit -usually mission-specific. Though I was no "Ace of the Base", I was offered my first choice assignment, right out of flight school.

I could write another chapter, at least, about the next nine, plus, years flying in the military. But, you guys are not interested in anything I have to write or offer -because you all know better, flying was invented here, and I am a "Flog", according to you.

Twenty years after graduating military flight training, I became a Captain of a four engine jumbo jet, responsible for 18 crew, and an aircraft costing more than $286 million. Think of the stigma of being a helicopter pilot and the twenty years it took to overcome to achieve that. I had to prove myself to Air Force and Navy and Marine Pilots whom have done carrier landings, at night, flying props and jets. They are another level, yet, of military pilot. Yeh, I am a "Flog" and you surely had a good time over my advice to get Instrument training, CRM training, et al. But, what the frack have the lot of you done, put together?

I have known a heck of a lot of pilots during my career. I am not saying military pilots are the best or make the best pilots. I have met a select handful of exclusively civilian-trained pilots who I thought very highly of. At least a couple in Australia. I can say, for a fact, that anyone who has ever asked me to pass their CV in to a Chief Pilot (regardless if military or civilian trained), I would. I would bend over backwards to help any pilot. I have vouched for and gone to the owner, CEO, Chief Pilot many times to vouch for or defend a pilot. Never once, during my career have I talked or spread gossip and rumours behind a pilot's back or said and wrote disparagingly about a pilot, especially not knowing him/her personally or flown with him/her (But, hey this forum is marginally better than twitter or facebook)

If anyone wants or cares to know what I believe the true difference is between military-trained and civilian-trained pilots is cockpit discipline, focus, professionalism, and we just wanted it more -than the guy who resigned or got washed out. Though I passed everything, my first completed Application packet for Flight School was simply thrown into the trash, by some jealous obstructionist, though it took months to take the Aptitude Tests, schedule the a military Class 1 Medical (not a civvie tick and flick), a face-to-face interview with at least a Major . . . When I went to check the status of my Flight School application, the same clerk I submitted my application to had replied to me, "You become an officer . . . You become a pilot . . . Not if I have anything to do with it!" I got reasigned and I re-applied and was accepted. Unfortunately, everything in Aviation is about timing . . . Right time, right place is more important than who you know, or who you blow (work free for and ask how he takes his coffee). My entry to Flight School was delayed for months, as a result, and anything could happen from the time I was accepted to the day I signed-in. Well, I got promoted and received a commendation medal for my service.

My Senior TAC Officer called me into his office, during flight training, when my class was being assessed. As he perfunctorily flipped through my file, with disdain all over his face, HE (and I capitalise HE, because I was speaking to God, at that point, someone who could make or break my career that instant) HE looked up, from behind his wooden desk and said, ". . . You're not going to make it. I want you to resign." I snapped to attention, saluted God (we're good at saluting) and I retorted, "You're going to have to kill me first. I will not resign."

After that, I took it one day, one success at a time. One morning I woke up and realised I was amongst the half of my original class whom graduated, at the end of 44 weeks.

That is the difference between us. If that makes me a "flog", a "wind-up muppet", "arrogant", I will happily accept that. I have put up with and have been called worse. I still graduated. How about you? This military vs. civilian pilot debate has gone on longer than you or I have been pilots.

Lastly, someone above stated that "you sunk to a new low", which is understated.

The difference between military and civilian pilots is military pilots put their lives on the line, every day, every "mission" willingly to defend your freedom of speech to disparage them. They pay for their training and to "chuff around in IFR turbines on the taxpayer's dime", with their lives in a very high risk environment, day-in and day-out for as long as they serve their country for mealy-mouthed, know-nothing, know-it-all tax payers like you. By comparison, you only have to decide whether or not you fly a Robbie into a cave for fun or continue VFR in IMC. Where were you? Were you selected? Were you amongst those whom "washed out" of flight training? You're a bunch of jealous kunts, hiding behind your keyboard or touchscreen, whom feel threatened by anyone who has done or achieved more or made the grade and go out of your way to hold someone back or cut 'em down to your level, throwing around words, like "flog", "spanker", muppet" -but if it makes you feel better about yourself or what you have achieved, go for it. If I could survive 44 weeks of Army flight training . . . your kindergarten name calling is more a reflection upon yourselves and culture club, and I will loose no sleep over any of it.

http://www.defence.gov.au/publications/coi/Reports/COIReport-30May11-Case.pdf

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Last edited by flyhuey on Wed Sep 27 2017, 13:19, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby Evil Twin » Wed Sep 27 2017, 07:49

Oh dear, someones gone and woken him up. FFS, here we go again......
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby kiwiflyer » Wed Sep 27 2017, 09:30

Fly Huey have you heard of the term spanker
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby skypig » Wed Sep 27 2017, 09:43

FerrariFlyer wrote:So, it’s not like this in the military? 8)

https://youtu.be/Sfw338TbYoI

.............
That said, we’ve had this type of discussion before. Do we need to have it over again? Anyone remember this 'memorable' thread? :

http://www.bladeslapper.com/viewtopic.p ... t=military


Oh dear.

I started this thread to try and get the “Toll 139 into a tree” off the mil v civ.
That thread died......
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby hand in pants » Wed Sep 27 2017, 09:49

ET, KF, dead on.
Practice, perfect example for you.

Certainly no your average ex-mil bloke, but you do breed them.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: Ex military V civilian background

Postby hand in pants » Wed Sep 27 2017, 09:50

Sorry Piggie, should have held my breath a bit longer..................................
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!

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