Do hours really matter?

[as350_nut]

This is a general question and I'm not looking for a chest beating competition or to find out who can p*ss harder into the wind.. But I've always wanted to know...

I understand the principal behind a high hour pilot being a "good" pilot due to experience... But does the hours of a pilot really make that much of a difference? Im sure there are 500 hour pilots who make bad decisions and I'm sure there are 5000 hour pilots who make the same bad decisions.. Do the hours of a pilot really make them that much better? Does it come down to the aptitude of the individual and how they react to circumstances that arise? Curious to see how everyone feels about the "hours" debacle?
Cheers,
As350_nut

[SuperF]

I understand the principal behind a high hour pilot being a "good" pilot due to experience...

**Not necessarily, sometimes you see a guy fly and wonder how he got the number of hours that he has. We do have a very Darwinian system, and through natural selection the incapable generally eliminate themselves or they just can't get a job. Unfortunately a lot of unlucky low time pilots pay the ultimate price through starting with the wrong operator/CP....

But does the hours of a pilot really make that much of a difference?

** yes! up to about 1,000 for basic flying, then you should be able to handle that. More for advanced different types of flying, as you have to get your first 1,000 hrs before you get moved onto the more advanced stuff.

Im sure there are 500 hour pilots who make bad decisions and I'm sure there are 5000 hour pilots who make the same bad decisions..

** yes there are... However the numbers say it all, most accidents are sub 1000 hr, then around the 1000, 5000 and 10,000hr marks... I don't know why. And then there are just the stray accident sthat happen at any hours in your career.

Do the hours of a pilot really make them that much better?

** not necessarily! but hopefully by the time he has reached 5000hrs, they have made all the beginner mistakes, and got away with it, so they won't make those same beginner mistakes again while flying my helicopter.

Does it come down to the aptitude of the individual and how they react to circumstances that arise?

**yes. But you still can't expect a 500 or 1000 hr pilot to fly like a 5-10,000hr pilot. I know lots of examples of operators that have thought that they can get away with hiring very low time pilots and putting them onto more advanced machines or types of flying and the pilots died, with less than 1,000 hrs TT.

There is really no hours "debacle" out in the industry. You either have the hours or you don't, the only people that are really concerned about it are low time guys, that don't understand why they can't get, whichever job they are after.

And some lowball operators that think that they can take low time pilots and send them out with no supervision. That's a recipe for disaster, and always will be, because as I was told a long time ago, "you don't know what you don't know!"

[hand in pants]

Personally, I think hours are important, but having said that a pilots total helicopter hours are only going to be one part of what I would look at if hiring someone.
I would be very interest in the person behind the hours, what is he like as a human, (trying to be politically correct here) are they a "nice" person, are the neat/clean/well presented. What is their background in aviation and before.
If they say they have high hours, do they fly like it?????
Does their logbook reflect the hours their resume implies???
Do the phone calls/emails you make confirm the logbook/resume. If not, good bye.
If yes, sit down over a coffee and have a easy, relaxed conversation about anything at all (include jobs they've done, places they've been, people they know).

Insurance companies will determine the minimum hours for the aircraft you operate by price, so you have to either pay more to reduce the hours your pilot needs or less if he has higher hours. But you will pretty much be able to tell if a bloke has the hours he claims in his logbook within 15 minutes of take off.
I have flown with pilots who fly like they should not have a licence for the hours in their logbook and I've flown with blokes not long out of flying school who have been very good for their total hours.

All that said, I wouldn't use anyone with less than 1500-2000 hours unless I know them very well.

[Turning base]

Good question,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of accidents I seem to recall a graph in the human factors part of the syllabus which indicates that while junior pilots
are responsible for more accidents/incidents where a 'handling error' is the cause, the percentage of accidents/incidents due to a poor decision is actually
quite evenly spread across all experience levels.

P.S. In no way am I advocating that experience/hours doesn't count for the more difficult/advanced operations.

[Stochastic]

It's a pretty complex question, and basically yes, hours matter.

Aside from the variance between individuals in diligence and capacity to learn, hours are synonymous with experience. Experience in a field allows an operator to develop mental models of complex systems.
Endsley's model describes mental models as critical for lvl 3 SA, prediction. The more experience an operator has the greater the catalogue of mental models and appropriate actions they have and the less working memory they require to achieve lvl3 SA. With less working memory required they have more attention to devote to other issues and perhaps more importantly, deal with distractions.

Having said that, there are many other issues at play, risk homeostasis for example. "Give me a ladder twice as stable and I will climb twice as high"

[athee1]

We had 1 pilot who has in excess of 10000 flying hours who couldn't complete training on a twin star. He had old habits that couldn't be ironed out. In the end, he did not pass his pilot proficiency check as required by the regulators here in Thailand, and he required more time. While he can fly all the basics correctly and to an acceptable standard - when coming to emergency procedures and procedural checks etc, he failed.

[Big Green Arrow]

This is the best theory i've heard.

A pilot self-assessing as to where they fit onto the Experience vs Ability spectrum is always positioned at the red dot.

Said pilot will perceive those with more experience - even a lot more - as having only moderately more ability.

However, those behind them in experience, if even by a couple of hundred hours, will be perceived as being massively inferior.

So my conclusion is that hours matter to those who have them; matter less to those who don't.

[The Collective]

Someone who has a bunch of hours must have held a job, or a few jobs, for a reasonable amount of time without getting fired for any reason. Because of this, hiring someone who has hours is always a safer bet than hiring someone who doesn't. Does it mean the guy with less hours is necessarily not as good? No, but the risk is higher.

[Tightly Wound]

This is the best theory i've heard.

A pilot self-assessing as to where they fit onto the Experience vs Ability spectrum is always positioned at the red dot.

Said pilot will perceive those with more experience - even a lot more - as having only moderately more ability.

However, those behind them in experience, if even by a couple of hundred hours, will be perceived as being massively inferior.

So my conclusion is that hours matter to those who have them; matter less to those who don't.

Big Green Arrow for the win.

TW

[Pinnacle]

We had this discussion around the table of knowledge the other day.
Hours are important but more so the variety of work, a 2500hr guy who has flown scenics out of home base every day.
Or a guy with less hours but more bush, survey, charter and overall flying experience?
Then there are the guys who log running time over flying time.. say sitting on a job for 10hrs running a day to flying for 3hrs it will show up on a check ride.
Having an extra 3-400 hours of just idling on the ground in a log book is not really doing you a favour if you still can't fly.
So yes!! Hours and experience level are huge!! You just never stop learning in this game.

[Firefish]

Nailed it pinnacle. Insurance companies want hours where an operator wants experience. Two completely different things in my book.

[as350_nut]

Thanks all for the replies it's an interesting conversation to have. I have another question aswell. For instructors who have now moved on from instructing with 1500 hours, whose total time comprises most of flying circuits, how valuable is this time versus a pilot with say 600 hours whose flown ATO and CTO's from training days onwards in a variety of jobs?

[bangequalsbad]

Its a snake eating its own tail.
Insurance companies want hours...operators want both...but you can't have one without the other!
"I'm not worried about hours if you've long-lined before."
"I've long-lined before."
"How many hours?"
Hahahahahahaha!

We had this discussion around the table of knowledge the other day.
Hours are important but more so the variety of work, a 2500hr guy who has flown scenics out of home base every day, or a guy with less hours but more bush, survey, charter and overall flying experience?
Then there are the guys who log running time over flying time.. say sitting on a job for 10hrs running a day to flying for 3hrs it will show up on a check ride.
Having an extra 3-400 hours of just idling on the ground in a log book is not really doing you a favour if you still can't fly.
So yes!! Hours and experience level are huge!! You just never stop learning in this game.

Sorry Pinnacle, but this gave me a good chuckle. It's a real Kiwi thing to care about/be proud about only logging collective hours, when you (as in any pilot) should log as many hours as you legally can...BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE CONVERSATION.
I'd bet you'd be extra-pissed if somebody who logged engine time got the job because of you by 100 or 200 hours due to insurance, and the job itself didn't require any special skills, and they were as competent as you.
As Green Arrow pointed out, perception of skill is biased based on who is doing the judging. It's always better to wait for somebody to pat you on the back rather than "reach around" yourself (which is difficult but possible).
I CAN understand your point of people talking themselves up because they have a few 100 hours more than you because of "inflated" logging and then flying like s**t...it happens...but this is more a reflection on the attitude of the individual rather than a HRS "v" EXP battle.
Just to make it clear Pinnacle, not having a go at you champ, but if the table of knowledge only has one opinion then there is no chance of being enlightened.
As you said, you never stop learning in this game, and it's less painful to learn from others mistakes

Bang=Bad

[Skeeter]

Hours it is. And always on the type / configuration you are short on...
Just as an example, I've done the military route and although I have only 800 hours they are a mix of the usual military stuff like low level, instrument, NVG, etc. Apparently its not worth anything cause I wasn't able to get an interview so far. Most mentioned reason (if any is mentioned at all) is lack of total time!
If you can legally log time you should do it.

[SuperF]

Bang, it's not just a kiwi thing, I think u will find it's a canada/USA thing as well, to only log actual flight time, not running time. I was surprised when I first went to Oz and couldn't match everyone's hours, how do you do 12 hrs between 7 and 7? Don't you land for fuel, or to relieve yourself?

Anyway, you guys are going the EASA way with your rules and they log running time you will be fine. Question I have for you, is do you have to record two different times, one for the pilot and one for the maintenance?

Regarding the time you log, I now recommend to new guys in NZ that they run an extra column in their logbook that has running time, so that when they go overseas they will have comparable hours to the locals, and in NZ they have flight time only.

Skeeter, I think some of the problem for you will be that you didn't get enough hours in the military to get straight into rescue or offshore, and all the NVG, IFR, etc is not too useful to most utility operators. Whereas if all those hours were sling, Ag, mustering etc, then they would be instantly transferable to the civil industry. But starting with 800 hrs has to be better than starting with 1-200...

[hand in pants]

With regard to logging engine hours and not flight hours, from my point of view I log my time as Pilot in Command of the aircraft. And I'm the pilot in command as soon as the engine starts and the rotors are turning. All well and good to say that your not the pilot until it gets off the ground.
Just imagine, you've got it started and running at idle, all looks pretty good until some knob walks into the tail rotor. Bet you can't get out and say "nothing to do with me, I'm not responsible until it's off the ground". The lawyers and cops and coroner will all be looking for the pilot in command, YOU....................
From the second the rotor becomes capable of killing/maiming some one, YOU are the PILOT IN COMMAND, you will be the one in court trying to explain how the knob was in the wrong.

[SuperF]

Hip, don't come to NZ then, only allowed to log actual air time in turbines. I don't care what anyone logs, as long as they do it legally.

And as far as being responsible for the aircraft, sorry but if you take the helicopter away you are responsible for it. Try going and landing and shutting down on a sand bar, or some rocks at low tide, let the sea come in and wash it away, then tell the owner oh no I wasn't responsible for it because it wasn't running. Lol, just a dumb example...

To say that you are responsible for it because the parts are moving, therefore I'm logging flight time is a silly way of thinking. You are responsible if it's moving or not, and you should log your hours according to the rules of the area that you are in. In Oz it's running, in NZ it's flight.

When in Oz I record flight time and running separately, that way I'm legal in whichever country I'm in.

[millotte]

Quick question SuperF?

In NZ when training or aircraft hire for example do you pay for collective hours or engine hours?

Millotte

[SuperF]

Training I think is engine time as they are pistons and they have an engine clock, and that really messes CAA up. lol

Hiring it would depend on the agreement. If it's private hire it could be either, commercial hire for charter or even commercial work like lifting etc can also be what ever you wish, that depends on the client and the operator.

[ChicoCheco]

In easy, superfluous, btw, it's until blades stop moving for helicopters. I didn't log most of my time in US that way either. Pistons. E.a.s.a I meant, iPad..