Do hours really matter?

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Firefish
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Firefish » Sun Aug 24 2014, 20:38

So what do you get charged for a Turbine endorsement?
Big Green Arrow
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Big Green Arrow » Sun Aug 24 2014, 23:10

And thus the culture no matter where i've worked in aviation......
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bangequalsbad
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby bangequalsbad » Mon Aug 25 2014, 01:08

SuperF wrote:Bang, it's not just a kiwi thing, I think u will find it's a canada/USA thing as well, to only log actual flight time, not running time. Yep, I'll pay that.

Anyway, you guys are going the EASA way with your rules and they log running time you will be fine. Question I have for you, is do you have to record two different times, one for the pilot and one for the maintenance? Yes, we log engine time in the pilots log and skids off/on time in the MR.

Regarding the time you log, I now recommend to new guys in NZ that they run an extra column in their logbook that has running time, so that when they go overseas they will have comparable hours to the locals, and in NZ they have flight time only. That is a good idea. It would be interesting to see what the difference is between them after a while. I probably "gain" 5-6 min a start (few to get her going and a few to get her stopped...engine that is...not blades! In a jetty you could technically (CASA) log the 5 min it takes for the blades to coast down!).



From the CASA Website "Flight Time (Helicopter) means the total time from the moment a helicopter`s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."
From the Transport Canada website "“flight time” means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)"
From the CAA website "Flight time means the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of flight until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight including all associated push back, taxiing and subsequent holding time."

If you were a cheeky kiwi...could you log the ground running legally as "holding time"?

ChicoCheco wrote:In easy, superfluous, btw, it's until blades stop moving for helicopters. I didn't log most of my time in US that way either. Pistons. E.a.s.a I meant, iPad..

:? Pardon?
SuperF
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby SuperF » Mon Aug 25 2014, 10:16

Bang, I agree, it's all interesting. Unfortunately that CAA definition is for aero planes I've been told, but I now can't find the helicopter def that said something like, skids off to skids down, very similar to the Bell definition.

Regarding the flight time, the best job I did, was a couple of years ago, charged the guys running time, it was a powerline support operation and I had to do everything myself, 8 hours running time, 3.4 flight time.

Lots of ag work, or utility/ construction etc can include a lot of up and down, and in and out of the machine all day. It can certainly add up.

Spraying for example, on the ground for a minute, every 4-6 of flying, adds a little bit of time. Jumping in and out talking to clients, you could be on the ground for 10 minutes every job.

I do short scenic flights occasionally, 6 minute flights, 5-6 minutes to unload and load each group, that would add up as well.

Actually if you are really clever in a Huey, you land with about a 20 kt wind from about the 7-8 o'clock position and it will drive the blades all day long. 0.1 in the maintenance log, 8 hrs in the pilot log.....
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haroldthehelicopter
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby haroldthehelicopter » Mon Aug 25 2014, 11:12

as350_nut wrote:.. Do the hours of a pilot really make them that much better?


Back on question. To a point yes and from that point not necessarily. The real variable in the whole industry is what is that "point". For individuals this point depends entirely on training, experience, talent and command/CRM skills.

Unfortunately for the industry, most operators (read contracts) put far too much emphasis on numerical ink in a logbook over the above. The old 'there has to be a line in the sand' phrase doesn't really fly for mine. A thorough, well thought out, mission specific check flight/flights with some common sense HR and chief piloting should determine a pilots employability more so than how much engine time he/she has logged. Some of the EMS hours minimas floating around are just plain bloody ludicrous...... another whole thread........

BUT, the industry it is what it is, so no point in trying to flog the horse. However, from one who has done it, it is possible to circumvent the "required minimas" and get in the door. I found sheer competency a handy tool in this.

HtH
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby VENISON » Mon Aug 25 2014, 13:40

big ladder to climb, i still count my hours to a decimal point 91.6 TT yeah!!! 8)
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby chutedragger » Mon Aug 25 2014, 22:38

Canada is skids up to skids down.
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Bootch » Tue Aug 26 2014, 04:54

millotte wrote:Quick question SuperF?

In NZ when training or aircraft hire for example do you pay for collective hours or engine hours?

Millotte



I know of a training place who's machines have two hobbs meters. One for run time, the other collective time.

No guesses which one the charge they students for and which goes in the Tech Log.
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby as350_nut » Thu Aug 28 2014, 08:14

So the general consensus seems to be that they do matter until you get a job then they're forgotten until you want a higher paying job... That old chestnut...
I still believe it's the aptitude of the pilot and their personal ability to fly rather than how many times they've sat in the seat. I understand the requirement for insurance purposes and I guess that's a generic way to monitor an industry, if this guy has lots of hours he must be good? Knowledge comes with experience I guess
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Stochastic » Fri Aug 29 2014, 00:03

Experience is a concept, it can't be objectively measured. It's usually described in terms of... a lot, some, or not much.
Total Flight hours can be measured and has been chosen across the board to be the most useful metric to quantify experience. It's not perfect, but it's a close approximation. Employers/insurance companies will further segment total flight hours into operational areas and possibly add weightings. (scenic flights * 0.7, low level survey * 1.4, night winch * 2.4 etc (arbitrary numbers for example only))

Abstract in article below includes graphs of accident rate v total time from FAA data.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457513003242
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby the coyote » Fri Aug 29 2014, 00:59

Hours = Experience, which is not just stick time. It is exposure to weather, decisions, malfunctions, false indications, commercial pressures, fatigue, bird strikes, turbulence, hostile environments etc etc.

As an example, I have had the pleasure of an engine fire warning on three occasions. The first one I got rattled me much more than the last one I got, and being rattled can affect how you perform and the decisions you then choose to make.

Just about all high time pilots I've spoken to will say that it gets easier to say no the longer you've been doing it, and I agree with that.

Hours matter in all kinds of ways that may not be immediately apparent. But less hours does equate to more likelihood of being a virgin for a given situation, and when you're a virgin you do perform differently!
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Zebt » Fri Aug 29 2014, 01:12

I would imagine that instructing could be considered as good experience if we are to analyse the 'quality of the hours', constant analysis of flights, frequent take off and landings, plenty of controlled airspace (depending on location), lots of emergency drills etc. As opposed to take off, fly straight for 3 hours and land. I would also consider preflight work to be pretty important, wx decisions, flight path etc, it would all add to the 'experience'. I guess in summary the total hours gets you a look in, the following interview would then give you the chance to describe your experience enabling the interviewer to then make a decision.
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Eric Hunt
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Eric Hunt » Fri Aug 29 2014, 05:20

The Coyote says:
Just about all high time pilots I've spoken to will say that it gets easier to say no the longer you've been doing it, and I agree with that.


Exactly right there.

Experience means the ability to say "No" or even "F***ING NOOOO!!!", whereas the junior boy can be swayed by an overbearing boss to do a job in questionable circumstances. Many a time I have put a stopper on flights when the juniors were reluctantly walking towards their machines, and who heaved a huge sigh of relief that I had made the decision not to go.

Eventually I got tired of making potentially life-critical decisions and gave up flying after 45 years of it. Life is so much easier now. Poorer, but easier.
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby as350_nut » Fri Aug 29 2014, 05:53

Wait Eric... Your poorer now your no longer a pilot?!? How does that work?! Haha.
Thanks for the input from all!
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby muppet » Fri Aug 29 2014, 06:06

Experience means the ability to say "No" or even "F***ING NOOOO!!!",

And with experience comes the awareness that you don't actually HAVE to go and do the particular task you are faced with if you have concerns. The world won't end. In some jobs, potentially, someone may die, but that, (sorry to sound matter-of-fact) is their problem. In MOST cases, all that will happen is that they have to play golf another day, someone may have to stay an extra night, the rig will have to get set up later, or someone may have to travel by road to hospital. Chopper pilots, for some reason, seem to think that they really must get the job done. Good to have a strong work ethic and level of commitment to the task, but learn to err on the side of not going (or not doing something) and you will live to become more experienced.

Plus, as has already been stated, sometimes you just need hours for insurance. And sometimes you just need to do something a few zillion times until you are really good at it. In short then, hours do matter, but they are not the only thing.

Eric's point re decisions is a good one to reflect upon. In plank-world, life is more clear cut and in big plank-world especially, decisions are made in a very supported environment and you are headed off to a nice safe airport somewhere else. In slapper-land, often all the pressure is dumped on poor little chopper man, who must face the big bad world in isolation whilst trying to keep everyone happy. Making the tough calls over & over can be a drain, which is possibly why experienced guys just learn to say no a bit quicker...
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Headset » Fri Aug 29 2014, 21:51

Some of the EMS hours minimas floating around are just plain bloody ludicrous...... another whole thread........


I'd like to know peoples thoughts on this. What minimums being asked are that ludicrous in the EMS world. My experience and recent ad looking makes me think they are not that far out of what's required to do the job.
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sat Aug 30 2014, 01:21

Most EMS operators are asking for 2500-3000hrs of suitable experience and have been for quite a while. They are far from ludicrous.

Along with the usual gannet of qualifications and experience like 500hrs twin, multiple MECIR renewals, winch, night, NVG exposure etc it's usually a reasonable, well rounded mix that allows an individual to cope with the demands of a single pilot environment in what is often a very challenging type of flying operation.

In a nutshell, it's not place for low timers to prove a point.
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haroldthehelicopter
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby haroldthehelicopter » Sat Aug 30 2014, 03:09

I thought this might ajar a can of worms.

FF, the gannet of quals you talk of is where the experience lies. NSW asks for 2000 PIC unwaivable to fly EMS. IF you've had the right training and career progression/experience, you do not need those hours to be a competent SPIFR, SPNVG EMS/Rescue pilot.

Doing the job you desire is not about proving a point (that's a very elitist statement), it's simply about being competent enough and experienced enough in the appropriate mission regime to do the job.

HtH
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby FerrariFlyer » Sat Aug 30 2014, 03:44

You're absolutely right HtH. A well trained person can display the competence required for such a position prior to meeting with client minimums however the minimums still largely capture a person who will/should, 'generally speaking', have the skills set required to complete the job.

Until we move towards a competency based assessment for applicant suitability for a particular flying roll I think minimums will remain.

There will always be exceptions however as a general rule of thumb I'd still support the minimums that EMS providers generally mandate.

Regarding my statement in terms of proving a point, please don't take it as having an elitist element to it. I certainly didn't mean it sound or be interpreted that way. 8)
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Eric Hunt
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Re: Do hours really matter?

Postby Eric Hunt » Sat Aug 30 2014, 06:21

Gannets are seabirds comprising the genus Morus, in the family Sulidae, closely related to boobies.


Perhaps you mean "gamut", although I like the idea of being related to boobies...

And i reckon that anybody who is an EMS captain and has less than 3000 hrs is a lucky person, because staying alive in that environment is normally more experience than luck.

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