Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

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Matt Nielsen
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Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Matt Nielsen » Tue Oct 9 2018, 01:38

Hi all,

The Dept. for Jobs and Small Business has asked the AFAP to make a presentation in Canberra regarding the listing of 'Helicopter Pilot' on the regional skills list.

As most of you know, the previous use of 457 class visas (now superseded) has not been without controversy. In the fixed-wing world, Qantas has been gifted a labour agreement, which some argue will continue to damage the prospects of Australian pilots. It's not inconceivable in that context, that similar arrangements might be sought by rotary employers in the future.

The AFAP will meet with the Skilled Migrant section on Monday next week and it would be very beneficial to hear your views, anecdotes, and evidence as to whether the current listing needs to be lifted. It would be especially useful to hear from those of you recently embarking on your job hunting post CPL and those otherwise involved in the training industry.

This isn't a 'witch hunt' or an attempt the 'bash up' any specific operator ... rather it is an opportunity to discuss whether the Department has it's policy settings right in the face of what has been a tough number of years in aviation, especially in rotary terms.

Feel free to make a post, PM me with responses, and / or contact the AFAP for a referral to me or one of the full-time staff members that supervise helicopter issues.

Thanks in advance.


Matt
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Fill-level » Tue Oct 9 2018, 03:34

Matt,

There is no Helicopter Pilot shortage in Australia.

There is a willingness not to pay for training and upskilling for existing pilots.

Far easier to import pilots .
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby FerrariFlyer » Tue Oct 9 2018, 04:17

Fill-level wrote:Matt,

There is no Helicopter Pilot shortage in Australia.

There is a willingness not to pay for training and upskilling for existing pilots.

Far easier to import pilots .


Article below is somewhat related to what you’ve mentioned. I don’t think pilots quite fit the category as being part of the ‘gig economy’ much the same way an Uber driver might be.

However, if the requirements in the article below become mainstream insofar as pilots constantly paying for endorsements to secure work (possibly short term) it’s anyone’s guess how few people will likely remain in the industry or indeed even commence a helicopter flying career at all.

Keep in mind some twin type ratings around the world run anywhere between $50-150k depending on what and where. If companies can save on training costs and import foreign labour to bypass the training expense they will.

Add to this the basic cost of a CPL(H) now circa $70-75k and some pilots choosing to spend a further $50-70k on IFR training. If the industry isn’t careful we risk the career path becoming the domain of either the extremely wealthy or highly indebted people...and a contract/labour hire styled environment.

http://helihub.com/2018/02/22/pilot-rec ... g-economy/
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Biggles » Tue Oct 9 2018, 05:36

How many RW pilots do the Aussie Defence Forces turn out every year? i'm guessing that's the best way to get all the ticks in the right boxes and get paid for it.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Black Ops » Tue Oct 9 2018, 11:02

G'day Slappers,

I would like to comment on this post and why I left the Australian Helicopter industry.

I don't work in Australia any more. However, I did for more than 10 years, as a Chief Pilot of my own company (sold the company) and later as a contractor, predominantly fire seasons and power line utility ops. About 10 years all up in singles, later I managed to get my first twin job in Bo105, thankfully the employer paid for the type rating.

Like all of us in this fickle industry we need to have an alternative source of income or skill set we can fall back on. This was the case for me for about 4 years. It's a very common story for most of us.

I decided to go to South East Asia. After sending my resume and a signing a contract, I went. Sure, the pay was s#!t, but the flying was great, the life style fantastic and I could survive.

I found that Asian Aviation companies really like the experience that Aussie Pilots bring to their operation. Most of their pilots did some form of training in Aus, and I knew this first job it was only a stepping stone. For the last 7 years I've been rated on airbus light and medium twins. All paid for by the companies who have hired me.

The helicopter industry in South East Asia is booming with no experienced pilots to fill the mainly corporate and VIP operations being created by the wealthy tycoons buying corporate jets and Helicopters and they love to see the white foreign faces up front. As my Boss recently stated, Its like going to a 5 star hotel and seeing the Chef is a foreigner, so the food must be good. Well thats the perception anyway.

I am also a contract pilot for Helispeed UK, and Geoff Packer is a decent guy. (see previous post) He has contracted me to ferry helicopters across Europe, and this would never have happened if I stayed in Australia.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby flyhuey » Tue Oct 9 2018, 11:53

Black Ops wrote:
Like all of us in this fickle industry we need to have an alternative source of income or skill set we can fall back on.
It was the very reason I got all my aeroplane qualifications. When the helicopter industry was waning, I flew aeroplanes. When airlines were furloughing, and there was a glut of aeroplane pilots with better credentials, I flew helicopters. I switched back and forth for almost two decades. I did have a couple gigs I flew both for the operators.

I decided to go to South East Asia.
Delete South East. I found myself operating in more than one country throughout Asia. Aside from their own Pilot Shortages, they have a real need to up their safety or image they project to their passengers they are a safe 21st century airline. AND, I have met passengers before or after the flights who told me, "I am glad it is you flying. I know we will get there." That is a real slug in the arm. So, for these Asian employers, it is all about the image they want to project. Sometimes it is even mandated by their own Aviation Regulators.

I found that Asian Aviation companies really like the experience that Aussie Pilots bring to their operation.
Change that to Foreign, especially American, Canadian, European, South African, New Zealand in my experience working overseas.

Sure, the pay was s#!t, but the flying was great
I found the pay was great, but the flying was sh!t. Often they would put the foreign captains on routes and schedules and in the weather that the locals wouldn't or couldn't fly. Beware! You must be on top of your game.

But, there are advertised age restrictions for recruiting, even though many countries have raised the age for Pilot retirement. 53 to 57 is the last window of opportunity. Get cracking.

Australia does not need to lure 457 Visa Holders. As it is, the Australian Aviation industry is an egregiously over-regulated and expensive lame, sick horse to ride for very long, with limited opportunities for the best of mates, where tall poppy syndrome, nepotism and ageism is rife. And, to make your way in such an environment one has to become a 50 years old hangar rat, sweeping the hangar floor and fetching coffee and sandwiches for the Chief Pilot and full-timers (one of 'em may say "And, buy yourself one"), just for a bit of stick time, and then when they finally get their first opportunity earning a pittance, they will have to sell their soul to be perceived as "a team player" hoping they will never get caught by CASA.

No, Australia does not need to bring in FW or RW pilots on a 457 Visa. On this one issue Australian Pilots should stand together.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Evil Twin » Tue Oct 9 2018, 13:03

Matt Nielsen wrote:Hi all,

The Dept. for Jobs and Small Business has asked the AFAP to make a presentation in Canberra regarding the listing of 'Helicopter Pilot' on the regional skills list.

As most of you know, the previous use of 457 class visas (now superseded) has not been without controversy. In the fixed-wing world, Qantas has been gifted a labour agreement, which some argue will continue to damage the prospects of Australian pilots. It's not inconceivable in that context, that similar arrangements might be sought by rotary employers in the future.

The AFAP will meet with the Skilled Migrant section on Monday next week and it would be very beneficial to hear your views, anecdotes, and evidence as to whether the current listing needs to be lifted. It would be especially useful to hear from those of you recently embarking on your job hunting post CPL and those otherwise involved in the training industry.

This isn't a 'witch hunt' or an attempt the 'bash up' any specific operator ... rather it is an opportunity to discuss whether the Department has it's policy settings right in the face of what has been a tough number of years in aviation, especially in rotary terms.

Feel free to make a post, PM me with responses, and / or contact the AFAP for a referral to me or one of the full-time staff members that supervise helicopter issues.

Thanks in advance.


Matt


No! Hire from home first, then train up from within, as an absolute last resort import.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Jeffory » Tue Oct 9 2018, 13:51

I believe there is no need for Skilled Migrant Visas for either FW or RW. There are plenty of licenced pilots in Australia who all aspire to something more than just flying scenics in their career, however progression in the RW world has been stagnant for quite some time now. If you started a career in Aus RW after 2012 chances are you haven't progressed very far, or if you have you've probably been paying for rating/endorsements out of your own pocket.

Many Australian operators seem to have an allergy to training, mentoring and retaining pilots of lower experience levels. When PNG and Canada were booming a few years ago, many took the opportunity to get into a turbine or onto a long line and build up a skillset (sadly to the detriment of local pilots). After a few seasons abroad, pilots would only then meet requirements for Aus utility operators. I guess that was just how it was.

With less opportunity overseas to quickly gain hundreds of hours in the utility/long line market, less Australian pilots will get that experience. So a few years up the road when an operator wants 250 hours on a line or bucketing and no locals have that expertise then the market would dictate that a skilled migrant would be sourced. The other more expensive option is to find suitable candidates and provide training and mentoring, but we all know that will never be the case is Aus.

Likewise, offshore operators can advertise for a ME IR and particular TR and if no suitable local applicants then of course they will want to look abroad. Why invest huge amounts of cash in flight crew when you can save money and keep the shareholders happy Same thing Q-link is doing right now.

As local pilots we all want opportunities for ourselves, but unfortunately all an operator will see is cost and liabilty. No one cares where the pilot comes from, as long as they tick a box. There is presently very little opportunity to be had in my opinion, there are enough people with extensive experience still kicking around.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby UnObvious » Tue Oct 9 2018, 17:20

Plumber's back with his complaining, always nice to see you around bud.

One thing that surprises me is to do with the Australian operators who partner with the USA/Canadian companies to bring in the bigger aircraft.

Why didn't these guys negotiate some form of trade program, where they put an Australian pilot in the co-pilot seat who can be trained up to standard and then become one of the captains on the roster? Seems like a missed opportunity to train from within and create some solid Aussie heavy pilots for the future. I'm not saying put a low time guy in there, but someone with some fire/long-line experience who just needs to learn the aircraft, not the job.

I think there is a requirement for the 457 for some jobs. The harsh reality is that some of the more precision/production longline stuff needs someone current to be safe/cost-efficient, and unfortunately there's not a huge amount of pilots in Aus who get enough exposure to it to stay dialed. If companies were prepared to spend some money on training/practice, then sure, maybe. But until then, we've got to out-source.

The Canadians have been happy with us coming over there for years (don't listen to plumber, he's the exception, not the rule). Recently they've tightened up the sponsorship visas but if you're under 35, get yourself a working holiday visa, a plane ticket and a license conversion and get after it.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Skeeter » Tue Oct 9 2018, 20:34

Disclaimer: I am not an Australian, but I am also not affected by a potential lifting of the visa.

Is there a way to look up how many pilots have entered Australia on this visa? Maybe even what kind of job they took?
Wouldn't it make a difference to the answer if there are only a few highly specific skilled pilots who used it compared to a flood of low time guys?

Nevertheless, I can only second the advice to get out there and fly in other countries if you can.
I love to fly with all sorts of individuals from different cultural backgrounds. It does teach you a lot...
The current company I fly for has nearly as many foreign pilots as locals and as a local... I don't care.
But that's Europe and most of us love the freedom to work in other countries and luckily, training is no issue at all with this company.
Everybody gets the required type ratings on twins and excellent biannual simulator training per type.

However, you can not train everything on your own.
I have been involved remotely in the hiring process to fill some pilot positions for a specific contract.
To train all required pilots up to speed would not only be too expensive but also not possible in the time available.

Most of the time, contracts have requirements like minimum hours on type, at night, IFR etc. for the pilots.
If you do not meet them, you as a pilot are not allowed to fly for this customer irrespective of your skills.
Unfortunately, hours in a book are still a synonym for skills in this industry but I firmly believe this will change to some degree sooner than later.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby plumber » Tue Oct 9 2018, 21:06

UnObvious wrote:Plumber's back with his complaining, always nice to see you around bud.

One thing that surprises me is to do with the Australian operators who partner with the USA/Canadian companies to bring in the bigger aircraft.

Why didn't these guys negotiate some form of trade program, where they put an Australian pilot in the co-pilot seat who can be trained up to standard and then become one of the captains on the roster? Seems like a missed opportunity to train from within and create some solid Aussie heavy pilots for the future. I'm not saying put a low time guy in there, but someone with some fire/long-line experience who just needs to learn the aircraft, not the job.

I think there is a requirement for the 457 for some jobs. The harsh reality is that some of the more precision/production longline stuff needs someone current to be safe/cost-efficient, and unfortunately there's not a huge amount of pilots in Aus who get enough exposure to it to stay dialed. If companies were prepared to spend some money on training/practice, then sure, maybe. But until then, we've got to out-source.

The Canadians have been happy with us coming over there for years (don't listen to plumber, he's the exception, not the rule). Recently they've tightened up the sponsorship visas but if you're under 35, get yourself a working holiday visa, a plane ticket and a license conversion and get after it.


You would be wrong in assuming I'm the exception to the rule. Canadian companies that take advantage of cheap labour and bend the rules of safety and legal duty days maybe. But that's about it.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Seagull » Tue Oct 9 2018, 22:21

Gents this is a golden opportunity to stop whining and get policy setting that can help. The argument many make for foreign pilots is about cost of training locals. If the Govt made it impossible to import them then ALL operators would need to build the training costs in to their tenders and all clients would need to build those costs into their budgets for aviation support. When drill programs cost tens of millions a week, do we really think a couple of measly heavy helicopter ratings are making a difference to that bottom line?

Matt, for my 2 cents it should not be on the critical skills list. There are plenty of highly skilled helicopter pilots both civil and military trained who could fill the jobs. Seriously, big or small, it’s just a helicopter. You get a rating and you get to work!! Engineers are where we need experience too, let’s look after them as well. After all, they are the ones who are keeping all those oily bits where they are meant to be!! Training of all aviation participants is critical to building a capable and sustainable safe aviation industry. Migrants are welcome of course, they bring skills and experience (and good food too!!) but they should not take preference over training aussies.

Wow that was long... sorry.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby flyhuey » Wed Oct 10 2018, 02:18

Seagull wrote:
ALL operators would need tobuild the training costs in to their tenders and all clients would need to build those costs into their budgets for aviation support.
Change the words "would need to", to SHOULD. Training, whether it is Primary, Initial, Advanced, Recurrent, Transition, Upgrade, whatever, is the one and only opportunity to prevent accidents and Pilot Error. Employers, whether for swinging a hammer or flying a multi-million aircraft for them, expect applicants to be in possession of a veritable laundry list of up-to-the-minute current cards, certificates, diplomas, and training. If Employers are not providing training or scrimp on training, then they are missing the one and only opportunity to prevent an Aviation incident or an accident. If Employers are not providing training or scrimp on training then they are also impinging upon quality control. Quality Control, as it relates to Aircrew means complete Regulatory compliance, complete compliance with company S.O.P., complete compliance with published aircraft Limitations/Warnings/Cautions, Customer/Client Service Relationship-building, et al.
You get a rating and you get to work!!
The F.A.A. mentality . . . So damned easy to work with, either as a Pilot or as a Mechanic.

That said, I have personally paid for two Type Ratings, during my career spanning 36 years . . . one was for a Cessna Citation 500 back in December 1982 and the other was for an Instrument ATPL, done in the Bell 206B III, done 10/1983. My Employers paid for all training, in FW or RW aircraft I had operated, otherwise. I never paid for an Instrument Renewal, for example.

By comparison, the last time I flew a particular twin engine turboprop was 30 years prior to flying the same aircraft in Australia. My Australian employer told me I would need to attend Flight Simulator training for the turboprop. He told me I would receive 4 hours. Four hours truly is not a lot, but it is better than nothing. I would have thought I should have the Flight Simulator training before I actually flew my first revenue flight. One fine night, I showed up at the Simulator facility near Essendon Airport, jumped in the Sim, and I was told by the AOC Holder/Chief Pilot/Instructor that he needed to use 30 minutes, or so, to assess another Pilot (who was not offered the job, though he claimed to have flown the aircraft, the day before). I stood in the back of the Sim, observing. The guy flew like a crippled monkey, with his wrists draped over the top of the Yoke horns. He could not fly an NDB Approach to save his life. Then, it was my turn, after the other Pilot exited. That left me with 3:30 to get some recurrent training, get comfy, and prove I could still fly. I barely broke a sweat and it was announced by AOC Holder/Chief Pilot/Instructor that I was done and he was satisfied. I told him, if there is still time, I would like to work through an engine fire, a landing gear malfunction, a rapid decompression, a cargo fire, a . . . There were 1,001 things that I felt I needed, before flying this poorly maintained pig across the Bass Strait, in the Winter, at 02:00 to 05:00 in the morning. Then the AOC Holder/Chief Pilot/Instructor told me, "I want some Instrument recurrent . . . Would you mind operating the Simulator?" We finished our 04:00 allotted time with him crashing nose first on the runway centreline, after he pulled the aircraft off the runway, prior to V1, with a simulated bird strike and dual engine failure . . . the only time he managed to keep the aircraft tracking down the centreline! The AOC Holder/Chief Pilot/Instructor flew his operation into liquidation owing everyone and me. Never paying one dollar into my superannuation. Every payday, my pay was late or short.

So, this is flying, in Australia. Employers want Pilots who apply to have all these endorsements, certificates, ratings, diplomas gained at someone else's expense, because they operate on a shoestring budget and really cannot afford to provide proper training or to be in business, at all. They are one engine inspection or overhaul away from liquidation, if that contract tender isn't won.

So, there is an old Chinese proverb that applies . . . "One apple, many mouths to feed". We have a small population. We have all the trainable-pilots we could want, right here. We have many young people who dream to become pilots, but opportunity is limited to afford training and get their first job. If we bring in Pilots on 457 Visas, we might as well start closing Flying Schools. Between C.A.S.A. over-regulation for every nit noi that does not involve straight and level flying and unhealthy cowboy attitudes, and Ma & Pa shonky operators on a shoestring budget, we are killing our own Aviation industry. A healthy Aviation industry would contribute greatly to the national economy. A healthy General Aviation industry employs thousands of people in ancillary industries, from folks to erect hangars and fences around airports, to package delivery services, to airport cafes, pilot shops, and so many more. The Aviation industry needs to change, in Australia. No?! Just compare two high desert, middle of nowhere airports . . . Alice Springs, NT and Bishop, California. It is already too late for me and my generation, but for those of you 50 and younger, your quality of life, futures, retirement -and lives depend upon it.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby lowlevelhell » Wed Oct 10 2018, 13:18

I absolutely have to concur with what has been mentioned here by other pilots:

1) Go overseas to get as much varied experience as you can, I found in my time flying in the US that inexperienced pilots took on much greater responsibilities FAR EARLIER in their careers than what is offered here in Oz, additionally their industry has far more airframes doing a much greater variety of work than we could ever dream of here, you will do things, see things, fly things long before, IF EVER doing them here! When I instructed at Helicopter Adventure Inc (which became Bristow Academy) we regularly had Columbia, Evergreen, etc calling us looking for right seat guys with only a couple hundred hours in R22/H300CB's going into BV-107's/B-234's/S-64's as their first "real" job! think I'm lying?, PM me and we'll talk further.

2) I started my first "real" job with an airline flying turbines with 465 hours!, additionally some of the BEST instructors I ever flew with had less than 500hrs!, I don't buy this BS about you being a "decent" pilot/instructor unless you have thousands of flight hours, the military for example has low time guys flying (and instructing) turbine, multi-million $$ aircraft with only hundreds of (if that) hours of experience! I've flown with "high time" pilots/instructors that literally made me cringe with their complacent "she'll be roight mate" attitude.

3) In my experience, what's KILLING the Oz GA industry is A) RIDICULOUS over-regulation considering the relatively small size of the industry, and the outrageous costs that go along with that! CASA is putting operators out of business with it's ridiculous operating costs and it's convoluted, antiquated, ever-changing, virtually undecipherable regulatory system. The FAR/AIM system of documentation from the US FAA is far more user friendly, cheaper and practical than whats offered here, considering how tiny our heli industry is compared to theirs, we need to learn from them. Dick Smith tried reforms and resigned TWICE in frustration! B) home grown companies HAVE to implement their own in-house training in order to train/promote guys into more complex airframes, otherwise we're left with what we have now, local guys being overlooked and not progressing for lack of experience/quals that are offered to foreign guys, if that's allowed to continue then kiss goodbye to the industry. Cashed-up, large foreign companies will continue to buy into the local scene (eg China, Europe, etc) until aussie companies will disappear (look at our manufacturing industry as an example....GONE!)
C) CULTURE!!! their is a distinct toxic culture in my experience here in Oz, every operator HATES each other and hates CASA. Tall poppy/hubris "If I don't have it or have done it then it can't be true" attitude is literally stifling the growth of this industry, I've NEVER seen anything like the negative, cynical attitudes here, it's really quite alarming and frankly VERY sad. We have to stop denigrating anything outside of Oz and realise we simply are not proactive/entrepreneurial enough in this game! (when was the last time an aircraft was designed AND built in this country, or cutting edge aviation technology implemented first here that the world recognised and adopted????....) and last I checked MORE foreign companies are buying into our industry at the expense of our own.

I'll probably get flamed for my opinion, but it's based on my "limited" experience and exposure here, I'm happy for anyone to PM me if they'd like to talk further, I'm all for constructive, positive brainstorming instead of cynical, derogatory sniping.
No bucks? No Buck Rogers! 8)
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby lowlevelhell » Wed Oct 10 2018, 13:24

Fill-level wrote:Matt,

There is no Helicopter Pilot shortage in Australia.

There is a willingness not to pay for training and upskilling for existing pilots.

Far easier to import pilots .


Exactly, couldn't agree more!
flyhuey wrote:
The F.A.A. mentality . . . So damned easy to work with, either as a Pilot or as a Mechanic.


ABSOLUTELY!
flyhuey wrote:
So, this is flying, in Australia. Employers want Pilots who apply to have all these endorsements, certificates, ratings, diplomas gained at someone else's expense, because they operate on a shoestring budget and really cannot afford to provide proper training or to be in business, at all. They are one engine inspection or overhaul away from liquidation, if that contract tender isn't won.


Sad but true!
lowlevelhell wrote:
we are killing our own Aviation industry.

like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic!
No bucks? No Buck Rogers! 8)
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Kenny Powers » Wed Oct 10 2018, 15:54

Engineers are where we need experience too

There is a willingness not to pay for training and upskilling for existing pilots.

RIDICULOUS over-regulation considering the relatively small size of the industry, and the outrageous costs that go along with that!

Employers, whether for swinging a hammer... expect applicants to be in possession of a veritable laundry list of up-to-the-minute...certificates, diplomas, and training. If Employers are not providing training or scrimp on training, then they are missing the one and only opportunity to prevent an Aviation incident or an accident.

Employers want Pilots who apply to have all these endorsements, certificates, ratings, diplomas gained at someone else's expense


All these comments apply directly to engineers as well. Have a look at any advertised LAME jobs and they will be looking for the "laundry list' of licences, ratings and experience that apply to their particular fleet. Quite often it is a mixed fleet of pistons/turbines and multiple types. You'd have to be a very experienced engineer to have the quals/experience to sign for all the various types that are operated out there.

It is an expensive prospect for an engineer to get rated on multiple types. It involves a lot of time, effort, heartache and certainly money to get a licence or rating these days, especially for a first licence or engine/airframe type on your licence, or a twin.

I have come across a lot of 'oh you haven't worked on that, I'd have to train you, and you'd just leave once I did' comments when I've previously been in search of work.

There also seems to be the perception in Australia that if you haven't worked on 'x' type, you can't possibly be good enough. For example, 'Have you worked on Bells?' "Yes, 205s". 'Well that's not a jetranger'.

My favourite comment was 'only the really experienced engineers get to work on HEAVY(!) helicopters like the A109'.

Sometimes these comments are designed to undermine the person, maybe in an effort to justify paying you less/making you a dogs body, make you feel worthless, or maybe just to get you off their back. Comments such as 'you don't have 'x' licence/rating, or this or that. Can you weld? Do you have a truck licence? Etc etc.

Engineers are out there too, but they won't progress either unless they get some help. Every qualification/licence/rating I hold (except for maybe cert IV), I have paid for myself, and most of it has been done in my own time.

Anyway, bit of a rant and maybe off topic, but I feel a lot of the same problems apply to folk either side of the fence.

I'll leave the foreigner thing alone.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby skypig » Thu Oct 11 2018, 08:45

There is a massive shortage of Airline Pilots
There soon will be a massive shortage of engineers
There is likely to be a shortage of appropriately qualified and experienced Off-Shore Helicopter Pilots.

What’s the answer?

Well, the lazy and short sighted, “panic” answer is Skilled Migrants.
So, that’s the one we will get.
:cry:



Lazy and dumb. Or current government and all the options.

“Jobs and Growth” is just a pyramid scheme.
Which is pure genius compared to anything Labor can dream up.
While the Greens wring their hands and bleet slogans.

Bleak.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby Firefish » Fri Oct 12 2018, 04:58

I think one of the problems here is that the industry is saturated with low hour pilots. Flying schools are still churning out the newbies with unrealistic expectations of employement. I also think you need to be careful what you ask for. If you stop pilots coming in from overseas and they return the favour that’ll be a lot of Aussies coming home looking for work. More than likely with more experience than the guys moaning on here.
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Re: Helicopter Pilot - Should it be on the Skilled Migrants List?

Postby flyhuey » Sat Oct 27 2018, 06:48

There will always be demand for appropriately credentialed, qualified, and experienced Pilots overseas, in the proper age restricted window. They can get away with advertising Age restrictions "prior to commencing contract" or "prior to completion of contract". Until employers get beyond the notion of age-discrimination (the old Age 60 Rule schemed by former American Airlines CEO C.R. Smith and the first Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration General Elwood "Pete" Quesada as a union-busting strategy to rid the airline of the most senior/expensive Pilots) like someone over 60 is more likely to fall off their perch as soon as the aircraft is airborne than someone half that age . . . There will always be a Pilot shortage, for the next 50 years. There is NO Medical or scientific or statistical basis for Age Discrimination or the Age 60 Rule to have ever been written into law. I knew a Bulgarian Captain, 42 years of age, who just passed his Class 1 Medical, and died in the cockpit. How many star athletes, in their prime of fitness and youthfulness, have died in the pool, on the football oval, in the gym -right here in Australia?

Both Airbus and Boeing have predicted astounding numbers in the Asia-Pacific region over the next two decades.

IF Australia does not allow 457 Visas for Pilots, do not worry. It will not hurt your chances to gain employment overseas.

Must do:
* Show up with all the proper forms and paperwork completed.
* Current National Police Check (AND, due to clever dicks (the bad apples) writing their own and creating forgeries, many overseas employers require Certified or Notarised documents)
* Many employers now require Pilot Logbooks to be Certified, by previous employer, the Aviation Regulator, or against aircraft Logbook records for the same reason as above -liars and cheats, exaggerating their hours
* Pilot Licences and Endorsements or Type Ratings must be verified by the Aviation Regulator and a signed letter addressed specifically to the employer -again, due to the rotten apples, who have managed to gain employment without a valid licence and medical
* Overseas employers require their own Medical and conversion to their Licence, requiring your CASA Aviation Medical to be current
* Some overseas employers like to see Training Records and Certificates . . . SO, think long-term. IF there is a chance you will not retire from your present employer, get copies of all that, which you are entitled to. Probably should get it signed and stamped and a line item signature in your Pilot Logbook, too.
* And, others

Only you will limit your overseas employment prospects.

There was a fellow who spruiked himself as a Boeing 747-400 Captain, to a particular employer, BUT he never served as a "Full Function" Captain. He was only ever a Cruise Captain and only ever made Takeoffs and Landings in the Flight Simulator. The airline hired him. It took about two years for the airline to rid themselves of a "bad apple". His partner spruiked herself as a Boeing 737 Captain, but when I met her, who was eager to impress me with how much she knew about the 737, I don't think she even knew the Nose Gear consisted of two tires . . . I am, saying I do not believe she ever flew it, other than the Simulator.

It is the "bad apples" who have ruined it for everyone else, increase the weight of your suitcase already brimming with documents and logbooks and crap you need, just to present for an interview and Simulator assessment.

That said, IF you have your sh!t in one sock, and you are well prepared and are what they are looking for, there will always be jobs overseas.

If I may say so, employers, I worked for overseas, told me they did not much care for Australian Pilots, due to "their attitude", yet did not mind Pilots from New Zealand. I am just saying. No?! I knew an Aussie Pilot I liked very well, who joined after I did. He went back to Australia on his Annual Leave and never returned. Think what that does for any Australian Pilot who might apply to replace him.

This has gotten long-winded.

All I want to say, in conclusion, if you want a contract overseas, play by their rules, show up with all the paperwork they require, don't b.s. them (they are well and truly beyond that) and be ready to go to work. Like anywhere else, do not compromise your professionalism -that is the trap for new players . . . Overseas employers seem eager to push the limits of your contract, cheat on their Regulations, cheat on your Crew Rest, have you fly with Co-pilots who would be dangerous driving a taxi or tuk tuk.

Say "HELL NO" to bringing in foreign Pilots from overseas. Remember 1989.

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