Mentor, traineeship, jobs?

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Hueyman
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Mentor, traineeship, jobs?

Postby Hueyman » Mon Feb 13 2017, 06:36

hello Slappers,

I wish to ask a few questions, make a few observations and have some dialogue into issues that seam to be effecting the Helicopter industry in the early stages of a pilots life. While some answers maybe obvious to you I want to also inform people looking to enter the industry or new pilots trying to progress to that first flying role. as there seams to be a lot of posts on this subject of late.

While there are many flight schools out there pumping out new pilots willing to part with their hard earned money or in some cases their parents. it appears there just are not that many job prospects for low or high hour pilots, and that for the amount of CPL licences issued there are very few that are active.
Is the 70/105 hrs minimum that a new pilots has when finishing, to then gain the next 150-400hrs to get that first flying job is just too hard to obtain? There has been lots of money spent with the question how much more do I need to spend? or is it maybe one form of filtering out the dedicated?
I'm sure there some great pilots are not flying because of this and some average ones are as they had a leg up. or you are out done by a Kiwi who got their licence for free from the gov. then spent money building that time.

Then if you do get an opportunity there are some operators that want work for little pay as they think they are doing you a favour. they promise flight time, then when this doesn't happen pilots leave, then they say "pilots these days have no drive"! There seams to be a real "earn your stripes" mentality. I understand that knowledge and experience is helpful but making it hard for people for no reason but self enjoyment helps no one.
While there rarely a surplus of positions to employers and I know there is a downturn in some other industries that is filtering down and impacting on ours. it just seams like there is not a lot in place to help low hour pilots enter this industry, including CASA.

So ok sure, there are a few good operators out there offering roles or allowing some form of transition, giving newbies a go, but I would like to ask why is there no real avenue for mentoring, traineeships/apprenticeship, or guidance within the larger companies for newbies to gain employment and progress from the 105 hr mark to a flying position. I understand this costs time and money but is it not an investment in itself?
Could a contract not be written to prevent the person leaving before their worth be retrieved by the company?
Could the pay the pilot receives not be supplemented by some form of funding as a transition with a senior pilot?
Insurance often comes into the conversation, could the excess not be paid by the new pilot? or they them selves takeout some form of new pilot insurance up to 400hrs?

id be interested to hear your thoughts and any experiences and from low hour pilots on their trials and tribulations in climbing that hour ladder.

pop;
Without data you just another person with an opinion.
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havick
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Re: Mentor, traineeship, jobs?

Postby havick » Mon Feb 13 2017, 08:06

Bristow used to run a cadetship.
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Re: Mentor, traineeship, jobs?

Postby jetA1 » Mon Feb 13 2017, 08:34

And also don't believe the NZ guys got free licences and built time! the money stopped once they where finished.
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Re: Mentor, traineeship, jobs?

Postby Niko » Mon Feb 13 2017, 08:58

I'm stuck inside waiting for a storm to clear, so I'll bite.

We live in a free society, so it's important to recognise that, whilst yes, there are fewer jobs than newly qualified pilots, if a person has made a decision to acquire a CPL(H) they deserve as much of an opportunity to try to acquire a position at the end of the training as I did back in the day and anyone else reading this.

Now plural of anecdotal evidence is not data, but I would also argue that in my personal experience; even if I didn't become a professional pilot, I still would have been glad that I had an opportunity to be a part our industry. The skills we learn transfer over into everyday life and helped me outside of my professional career greatly

There is no ultimate answer to your question. However don't be so quick to put your pitchforks and torches down. A quick search on the AFAP website a few weeks back had a listing for a Grade III instructor. This is how many chose to bridge themselves over into PNG, Turbines, Bistrow etc... So the approximate cost would be around $130'000 including the small gap of hours to fill between the rating and the acquisition of the CPL... Many here would argue that you would not have enough experience to train new pilots; this is not supported by evidence and I have been honoured to have trained and met many Grade III's who are fully proficient instructors. A flight test at the end of your training is designed to test your ability to be an instructor; if you pass, your abilities are sufficient. I digress,

Actually I lied, there is an ultimate answer to your question: You need as much experience as the job market requires you to have. This varies. Yeah you're right, it sucks; you're playing a game of musical chairs with way more people than stools. If you're new CPL then you're given a baguette whilst everyone else gets a knife. But as a consolidation, remember the more rounds you play [the more jobs you apply for, the more people you hara... I mean talk to] the more likely you're to succeed

Finally there is no real avenue because there is no real endgame in the 'heli world'. In the 'fixed wing world' the path for most is set, with the airlines on the horizon

Insurance in aviation doesn't fully work that way. It's complicated. Also *gasp* sometimes I have seen it used as a scape goat not to hire pilots bellow a certain number of hours. A nice[er] way to tell you not to bother with the application.

In regards to "investment" - Again you will find exceptions to everything I have mentioned, however in broad general terms, employers would much rather have pilots who are already able to achieve the required standard of competency than having to grow someone into it; and if the market can supply such a pilot (and at the moment it surely can) then generally speaking it's not worth it

The contracts... those are up to employers - in my experience the answer to your latter questions is a simple "No"

I know some of these answers are hard to swallow, but take sollace in two things: 1) I'm some guy on the internet who may or may not be right 2) all of my students in the last year have gained employment within the industry [without my help]

Good Luck

Hueyman wrote:hello Slappers,

I wish to ask a few questions, make a few observations and have some dialogue into issues that seam to be effecting the Helicopter industry in the early stages of a pilots life. While some answers maybe obvious to you I want to also inform people looking to enter the industry or new pilots trying to progress to that first flying role. as there seams to be a lot of posts on this subject of late.

While there are many flight schools out there pumping out new pilots willing to part with their hard earned money or in some cases their parents. it appears there just are not that many job prospects for low or high hour pilots, and that for the amount of CPL licences issued there are very few that are active.
Is the 70/105 hrs minimum that a new pilots has when finishing, to then gain the next 150-400hrs to get that first flying job is just too hard to obtain? There has been lots of money spent with the question how much more do I need to spend? or is it maybe one form of filtering out the dedicated?
I'm sure there some great pilots are not flying because of this and some average ones are as they had a leg up. or you are out done by a Kiwi who got their licence for free from the gov. then spent money building that time.

Then if you do get an opportunity there are some operators that want work for little pay as they think they are doing you a favour. they promise flight time, then when this doesn't happen pilots leave, then they say "pilots these days have no drive"! There seams to be a real "earn your stripes" mentality. I understand that knowledge and experience is helpful but making it hard for people for no reason but self enjoyment helps no one.
While there rarely a surplus of positions to employers and I know there is a downturn in some other industries that is filtering down and impacting on ours. it just seams like there is not a lot in place to help low hour pilots enter this industry, including CASA.

So ok sure, there are a few good operators out there offering roles or allowing some form of transition, giving newbies a go, but I would like to ask why is there no real avenue for mentoring, traineeships/apprenticeship, or guidance within the larger companies for newbies to gain employment and progress from the 105 hr mark to a flying position. I understand this costs time and money but is it not an investment in itself?
Could a contract not be written to prevent the person leaving before their worth be retrieved by the company?
Could the pay the pilot receives not be supplemented by some form of funding as a transition with a senior pilot?
Insurance often comes into the conversation, could the excess not be paid by the new pilot? or they them selves takeout some form of new pilot insurance up to 400hrs?

id be interested to hear your thoughts and any experiences and from low hour pilots on their trials and tribulations in climbing that hour ladder.

pop;
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havick
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Re: Mentor, traineeship, jobs?

Postby havick » Mon Feb 13 2017, 18:21

jetA1 wrote:And also don't believe the NZ guys got free licences and built time! the money stopped once they where finished.


And they have to pay it back eventually.
"You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel."
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Hueyman
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Re: Mentor, traineeship, jobs?

Postby Hueyman » Sat Feb 25 2017, 08:00

Thanks Niko that's the kind of responce I was requesting, a little decorum and level headed responce instead on running with the negative.
and yes like vet fee help I understand that they have to pay it back at some point but that's after money spent building time and getting a job. or in one perticular case come back to Australia and forget about the debt all together. (And yes I know someone who has done this.)
Without data you just another person with an opinion.

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