ATPL Law question

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Evil Twin
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ATPL Law question

Postby Evil Twin » Thu Mar 20 2014, 06:04

A friend of mine and I both had this question in ATPL law and cannot find the answer in any documents, can anyone point us in the right direction?

Which flight must be completed IFR:-

1. RPT

2. RPT by Night

3. Over water

4. RPT in a CTA

I'm stumped
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froginasock
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby froginasock » Thu Mar 20 2014, 06:39

I'm guessing 'B' - You can't do 'Night VFR Charter' - therefore you MUST be IFR to conduct charter at night.

Frog
tinman
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby tinman » Thu Mar 20 2014, 06:58

CAO 82.3 Para 7
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Evil Twin
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Evil Twin » Thu Mar 20 2014, 07:20

Thanks Tinman. Still clear as mud but at least I know which mud pile to look at.
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby WhatItTakes » Thu Mar 20 2014, 08:02

You can do VFR chtr at ngt, must be MPT
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Mongrel Dog
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Mongrel Dog » Thu Mar 20 2014, 08:09

froginasock wrote:I'm guessing 'B' - You can't do 'Night VFR Charter' - therefore you MUST be IFR to conduct charter at night.

Frog


You can do charter at night in a helicopter, providing it's multi engine. The stipulation is that the crew must hold an instrument rating applicable to their role.
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Evil Twin
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Evil Twin » Thu Mar 20 2014, 08:35

and be in a multi engine helicopter. MPT can get an exemption to fly single engine. Seemed like a hell of a bull5hit question if you ask me. In much the same way that we are being asked about use of oxygen above FL250 in a helicopter. I could go on......:roll:

Guess it really is just a barrier test, as opposed to being relevant to your actual qualification. See if you can work out the answer from this, I don't think I could if I'd sat there all day:-

7 Obligations in relation to flight category and aeroplane requirements
7.1 Subject to paragraph 7.4, each operator must conduct operations in multi-engined aeroplanes equipped for flight under the instrument flight rules (I.F.R.).
7.2 Subject to paragraphs 7.2.1, 7.2.2, 7.2.3, 7.3 and 7.4, each operator must conduct flights under the I.F.R.
7.2.1 An operator may conduct flights under the V.F.R. in Class E airspace, if:
(a) the flight is conducted in V.M.C.; and
(b) the pilot in command has, while in Class G airspace, requested air traffic control to follow I.F.R. pick-up procedures; and
(c) the pilot in command is awaiting an air traffic control clearance to operate under the I.F.R. in Class E airspace.
7.2.2 An operator and a pilot in command who conduct a flight under the V.F.R. in accordance with paragraph 7.2.1 must, if the aircraft is not climbing, ensure that it maintains an altitude appropriate to a flight under the V.F.R.
7.2.3 In all other respects, a flight to which paragraph 7.2.1 applies must be conducted as if it were a flight under the I.F.R.
7.3 An operator may conduct a flight under the V.F.R. in multi-engine aeroplanes if:
(a) the flight is by day; and
(b) the operator and the pilot in command are satisfied that the flight is not able to be conducted under the I.F.R. but can be conducted safely under the V.F.R.; and
(c) the flight crew is able to communicate at all times during the flight with:
(i) Air Traffic Control; or
(ii) Flight Service; or
(iii) the operator; or
(iv) a representative of the operator who has immediate access to a serviceable telephone; and
(d) the equipment required under paragraph 7.1:
(i) is serviceable; or
(ii) has a permissible unserviceability.
7.4 An operator may conduct flights under the V.F.R. in single engine aeroplanes equipped with the flight and navigation equipment specified in Appendix II to section 20.18, if:
(a) the flight is conducted in accordance with subparagraphs 7.3 (a) and (c); and
(b) the operator and pilot in command are satisfied that the flight can be conducted safely under the V.F.R.; and
(c) the pilot in command holds a valid command (single engine aeroplane), or command (multi‑engine aeroplane), instrument rating whether or not the pilot meets recent experience requirements set out in Civil Aviation Orders; and
(d) the flight and navigation equipment specified in Appendix II to section 20.18 is:
(i) serviceable; or
(ii) has a permissible unserviceability.
7.5 For the purposes of paragraph 7.4, a single engine aeroplane used to conduct a flight under the V.F.R. does not require duplicated sources of power supply in accordance with Appendix II to section 20.18.


(edited to include rant :D )
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Air Taxi » Thu Mar 20 2014, 11:52

Evil
I think the MPT guys do it under an airwork category and the marine pilots are 20:11ed and deemed part of the flight crew. Hence not a charter passenger. I may be wrong perhaps an MPT pilot could clear up.
Sounds like another example of the KDR,S not doing what they should. Enlighten us
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Mongrel Dog » Thu Mar 20 2014, 13:12

Air Taxi,

The reference is in CAO 40.2.2

3 AUTHORITY GIVEN BY RATING
3.1 Subject to subsections 5 and 6, a night V.F.R. rating authorises the holder of the rating:
(a) in the case of an aeroplane grade of night V.F.R. rating — to fly as pilot in command of aeroplanes having a take-off weight not exceeding 5 700 kg on private or aerial work flights within Australia by night under the V.F.R.; or
(b) in the case of a helicopter grade of night V.F.R. rating:
(i) to fly as pilot in command of helicopters on private or aerial work operations; or
(ii) if the holder also holds a commercial pilot (helicopter) licence, or an air transport pilot (helicopter) licence — to fly as pilot in command of a helicopter with a maximum take-off weight of 5 700 kg or less for the purpose of transferring marine pilots from land to ship, from ship to land or from ship to ship;

Cheers, MD
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby froginasock » Thu Mar 20 2014, 22:51

You can do charter at night in a helicopter, providing it's multi engine. The stipulation is that the crew must hold an instrument rating applicable to their role.[/quote]

I happily stand corrected. MPT as discussed is charter and can be conducted under the NVFR - but it seems to blur the line a little - the upcoming regs are changing MPT to Aerial Work to reflect it's unique operation (I believe).

Given the reference to CAO's (above) - for RPT - the answer is still B (or isn't it?).

Section 82.3 (Conditions on Air Operators’ Certificates authorising regular public transport operations in other than high capacity aircraft)

7.3 operator may conduct a flight under the V.F.R. in multi-engine aeroplanes if:
(a) the flight is by day


.... Therefore not at night?
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby NZHelo » Fri Mar 21 2014, 02:18

Did you pass the exam, if so, does it matter?
Did you fail the exam by one mark? Should have spent more time studying use of oxygen above FL250 in a helicopter
Will a possible employer ask you that question? Highly unlikely

Having said all that there are only two ATPL exams in the country I live in and they aren't an English test.......Thanks for the easy ATPL transfer to OZ ICAO....Oh and you don't need to spend a fortune on publications that need updating whenever the governing body wants a cash injection for changing a couple of words (could to should)!!!!
CA$A and that maggot exam company are a bunch of crooks.
I've learnt more on the job than I ever could have from the books.....nice thread creep sorry
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby CYHeli » Fri Mar 21 2014, 04:22

The answer could come from CAR 174B VFR flights at night and CAR 175A Restrictions on IFR flights by single engine aircraft.
The above both list what you can do under each category and by elimination the answer is night RPT in a twin under the IFR.
What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others.
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Evil Twin » Fri Mar 21 2014, 06:59

Thanks CYHeli that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

NZHelo, I could kid myself and say that that was the one I needed to get me over the line. Truth is I wasn't good enough on the day and that was the second attempt missed by one question. The reality is I got 7 wrong, any one of them would have given me a pass but I was skating too close to the edge. I didn't have any issues over the oxygen stuff I was really using that as an example of the bloo8y daft questions we are asked as helicopter pilots. I could have a rant about being asked questions about being a part of a 3 pilot crew or Land and hold short too but that would be equally futile. I'm with you on the Publications stuff. Funny isn't it that an ERSA is only $25 ish while the AIP is $125! It can't even be to pay for the updates as they charge you for those also.

I'll just grit my teeth and have another crack. I've got five to go and, effectively, five months to do them in. I'll just do a different one next and come back to it once I've licked my wounds for a bit. I'd love to do it tomorrow but I have to wait.

Cheers
ET
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mdav
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby mdav » Fri Mar 21 2014, 07:24

Hey ET considering you have experience on the recent exams for air law, what tips can you give as I'm sitting on wed. Oh did you get the curfew question?
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Evil Twin » Fri Mar 21 2014, 08:17

Mdav I didn't get the curfew question but a mate at work did. Adelaide curfew is 2300 - 0600 local time! The mate who did it answered that holding would eat into fixed reserves and didn't get a KDR so one could assume that he was right.

I'm not really in a position to give tips on passing but knowing where to look will save you lots of valuable time. I'd estimate that 40-50% came out of the CAO. The rest out of the CAR and AIP
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby mdav » Fri Mar 21 2014, 08:54

Cheers I heard was mostly CAO's. Trying to determine what book to look in is the hard part for sure. Will keep doing question and see what happens.
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby Evil Twin » Fri Mar 21 2014, 09:05

Fold over the corners of relevant sections as it makes it really easy to quickly go to where you need to. Highlight relevant sections or text also. One thing I did see that was really interesting was a guy had shifted whole sections or chapters along a single ring in the binder. This made it very quick to move through the sections.

A mate at work also removed all of the non relevant parts altogether. I'm using his documents and it makes life much easier than wading through stuff that isn't needed
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Re: ATPL Law question

Postby mdav » Fri Mar 21 2014, 11:59

Do you have a list of those sections?

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