Newbie in Adelaide - Schweizer 300 vs R 44?

[Becky Boo]

G'day all, going to start training for PPL (H) in Adelaide, looks like the choices are Schweizer 300 or Robinson R44.... Whilst the 300 is the cheaper option by hourly rate, I have heard that the 300 is really only used for training purposes and not much else, and once I have my license I will probably never fly one again? Any thoughts on this one? Becky

[Evil Twin]

Go 44, your first job will be flying one and very likely not a 300.

[helmet spider]

Hi mate
My advice is fly both. As I recall you can fly two types for the purpose of obtaining your CPL so save some cash on 300. It will also teach you good throttle control and a bunch of other skills that will come in handy. I would suggest you do a good 20 hrs or more in the 44 as this is most likely the machine you will fly post training and that should be enough to give you a chance of obtaining that first job.
That’s my 2c enjoy your new found addiction

HS.

[Pitchpull]

Hi Becky,

Firstly the training is the most important thing you should be focusing on at this stage and FTA is a very good school. If you were going for your CPL and could afford to complete the course in a 44 then would say go for it! as 44 time is important in most cases for new CPL's. However as a PPL and if you are trying to keep costs down then there is nothing wrong with training in the 300 and then getting endorsed on the 44 after.
Food for thought, cheers!

[heli2o]

G'day all, going to start training for PPL (H) in Adelaide, looks like the choices are Schweizer 300 or Robinson R44.... Any thoughts on this one? Becky

Just to be clear you are going for PPL right? If so it doesn't matter what machine. Just get endorsed on what you will be flying after you get your license.
If you are going for CPL have you considered training in a R22? Will keep the costs down and easy transition to the R44 either during or after your training.

[Seagull]

Go the 44. It’s an easier machine to fly so you’ll learn faster which reduces the number of hours needed this makes the whole cost about the same as doing in the 300. It’s also a better machine for seeing the SA wineries in because of the pax seats and a bit more power. Enjoy the training!

[havick]

Go the 44. It’s an easier machine to fly so you’ll learn faster which reduces the number of hours needed this makes the whole cost about the same as doing in the 300. It’s also a better machine for seeing the SA wineries in because of the pax seats and a bit more power. Enjoy the training!

What? A helicopter is a helicopter.

[Seagull]

This is true but when you are going to fly your friends and family it’s nice to have spent time in the machine you are going to use. We can’t all train in EC135s!!

[flyhuey]

Becky,

I learned to fly in the US Army, back in 1978. We were trained flying the TH-55/TH-55A, basically a Hughes 269/300 (Schweizer). Great conventional aircraft, to build a solid skillset flying conventional aircraft. I am saying the Robinson is unconventional, especially in its flight control configuration. It will be an easier transition going from one conventional helicopter to another. The transition from learning to fly the Robinson with its teeterinmg Cyclic Control, may be more difficult going into a larger helicopter, with conventional controls. The accident rate for Robinson helicopters is very high, globally.

You might ask to get an introductory 30 minute flight in each, with the same Instructor, and you will understand where I am coming from. If you can spy any larger turbine helicopters parked at Parafield, then take a peek inside the cockpit at the Flight Controls. How far do you want to go in your career?

What you will learn in the 300, you will not likely forget. I flew one 31 years later to earn my Australian Grade 2 Helicopter Instructor . . . I can recommend a damned good Instructor. Send a PM if you want to know more.

If the Schweizer is less expensive, that is what I would recommend. Fly frequently, at least a couple times a week, so you will not have to repeat lessons. If you drag out your training and have to repeat lessons, then any aircraft will become expensive.

Take the money you save and invest it in a Bell Jet Ranger Endorsement.

Good luck.

[bigglesbutler]

I'm sorry huey but I disagree in the idea of going from r22 will cause you problems. I did my ppl in an r22 and enjoyed refining my skills such that when I went into the 300cb I had a much finer touch and flew very smoothly. After the 300cb I was put into an AS332L superpuma and again had a very fine touch for hovering and offshore flying.

Becky the best advice anyone can give is to ask, listen, then make your own mind up. The proposal of trying both is very good, but don't ever be put off flying something on someone else's say so you should make your own decision, as a pilot you need to make decisions and here is one for you to make.

Good luck and I wish you all the best but MOST importantly ENJOY it.

Si

[flyhuey]

Becky,

Bigglesbutler is right, don't make up your mind, based on what I wrote . . . Others have written far more:

Start here before deciding to fly the R44:
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/sa ... tion&q=R44

Then, go here:
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 90994a9216

Then, go here:
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... /index.asp

Then, go here:
https://robinsonheli.com/robinson-safety-notices/

My first job, right out of the Army, March 1982, was as a Robinson Instructor. I wrote to Frank, back then, to tell him what I thought of his Robinson helicopter. My low opinion of the Robinson has not changed. I won't fly one, given a choice.

And, in my opinion, whether helicopter or aeroplane, the bigger they are, the easier they are to fly. Almost fly themselves.

[Eric Hunt]

I learned on the Huey, and it was about 7000 turbine hours later that I first put on an R22.

I found it to be a perverse little thing. Twitchy, control feedback, piddly little pedals and a pointy-ended intercom button that hurt every time I pressed it.

But I persisted and spent about 1300 hrs instructing on it and doing charter photo jobs. I almost came to like it. Almost. It does an acceptable job.

Go to each school that interests you, talk to the people, and the students, go for a couple of TIFs to see how each one fits, and make up your own mind. And read the documents above.

[Twistgrip]

Eric,
I remember a brief conversation we had at a truck accident on the Central Coast back in around 95’ I flew a 22 down from Newcastle Heliport Wickham at the time whilst I was working for Clive Lipscombe carrying a Newcastle herald reporter.

You were in VH-SHH and I still vividly remember you telling me “Young man if you can fly that little thing you’ll be right for the rest of your career!”

[Eric Hunt]

Twisty, was I right? You're STILL in a 22 for the rest of your career???

[Twistgrip]

Cheers Eric,
Finally upgraded to something with a few more buttons to push these days

[RePLCPLH]

G'day Becky,

The only three rules set in stone if you're doing a 105 hour course are:

1. Your first 15 hours has to be on the same type;

2. You can train on a maximum of two different types during your training and to be endorsed on both, you can't do any less than 20 hours on the second type; and

3. Your last 30 hours has to be done in the 90 days prior to your flight test.

Entry level jobs are likely to involve a 44 and few employers are likely to take any less than 20 hours on one seriously. The difference in hourly rate from a 300 to a 44 is around $300. The smart money during your training is therefore to do your initial hours on the 300 and transition to the 44 at least 20 hours before your flight test (around $6k). If you can afford to do your last 30-50 hours on it, even better.

The fact that you'll have a more comfortable examiner on your flight test, in an aircraft that's easier to auto and fly generally, is just a bonus.

[Cockroach]

Those three rules that were set in stone disappeared a couple of months ago, even for the 105hr option.

[VBlade]

Those three rules that were set in stone disappeared a couple of months ago, even for the 105hr option.

How have they dissapeared? I am under the impression that is still the case.

Can you ellaborate on you’re statement.

[Cockroach]

I'm not looking at the regs now, but the gist is; your 3 set in stone rules were a part of CAR 5, a CASR 200 and something made allowance for the continued use of CAR 5 after part 61 came out. That exemption has now gone and in its place an option to do 105hrs under CASR 61.

[RePLCPLH]

I think you’ll find that things change significantly if you’re doing a 150 hour course compared to a 105 hour course Cockroach.

Those three rules are still what the majority of flight schools in Australia running a 105 hour curriculum are working with. They’re the very reason you’ll find a max of two types advertised (do 150 hours and you can fly as many types as you like) and your school will ground you at 75 hours until you have a pass in all 7 subjects.