CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

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Mick Cullen
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CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Mick Cullen » Wed Apr 18 2018, 23:57

Looking for any recommendations on minimum effort options to gain CERT IV Workplace Training qual for helicopter instructors?

Have been chipping away at an online course for a while but its very slow progress. Takes as much effort to understand their questions as it does to provide the answers.

Is there any industry specific or flying instructor tailored options that anyone has used to knock this out of the way?
Fill-level
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Fill-level » Thu Apr 19 2018, 00:21

Get in contact with the bigger fix wing schools, they sometimes run a full time course
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Blade
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Blade » Tue May 1 2018, 09:35

Hi Mike, you don"t need a cert 4 as you can do a PMI. Our local Basair charges $1000 and 10 days for the pleasure.
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Evil Twin
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Evil Twin » Tue May 1 2018, 10:00

More CASA bollox, if you're doing an instructor rating you are being taught to teach FFS! Oh no, lets make a complete course for that 5hit, bankers! They did this in NZ when I did my instructor rating years ago, changed the course from 2 days to 4, what changed? nothing apart from it cost more!
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby ChicoCheco » Tue May 1 2018, 10:48

There used to be one online college doing the older TAE 40110 or whatever number. Cheapest around. Then it got updated (unsure which entity makes decisions higher up on this) in content to ending 16 course code.
EDIT: Address adult language, literacy and numeracy skills+ Develop and design assessment tools as two new 'core' units, 10 min total.
https://training.gov.au/training/details/tae40116#

It was not PC of me to describe ALLN issue as special needs and minorities. Yeah. In this world some suffer inconvenience or needless financial expenses so that governments, councils, bureaucratic system cannot be blamed for discrimination or neglecting something.
The two new core units, quite understandably superfluous in aviation training with enough continuous assessment, required LLN for entry into training.

PMI is enough for licence but as mentioned here in other topic or elsewhere online, part 141/142 schools are supposed to have FIs that do have TAE cer4 or newest code. Bunch of bureau-crap as usual.

Don't blame heli schools as them enforcing it if they do. They just have to meet criteria for their tuition loan and Diploma course staff teaching them.
Last edited by ChicoCheco on Sat May 5 2018, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
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rotors99
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby rotors99 » Tue May 1 2018, 11:35

Crikey TAFE's have gone up in price....................try $4,800 )c/

https://www.tafensw.edu.au/course/TAE40 ... Assessment
RotorBez
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby RotorBez » Fri May 4 2018, 01:20

Blade wrote:Hi Mike, you don"t need a cert 4 as you can do a PMI. Our local Basair charges $1000 and 10 days for the pleasure.


If only this were correct. Unfortunately you DO have to have a Cert IV in TAE if the flight school you are employed by happens to be an RTO. This is an RTO requirement and it's something that is going to catch a lot of people out.

If you are currently TAE40110 then you have until April 2019 to uplift your qualification to the new TAE40116. If however you have nothing then you have until August this year.......the misconception of PMI being adequate is unfortunately just that, a misconception for RTO's.

Just another hurdle to overcome - sigh!

Cheers

RB
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Fill-level » Fri May 4 2018, 05:27

So if you have an old Cert IV, you have to do an upgrade course for $600 ...Utter Oc:=
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby RotorBez » Fri May 4 2018, 07:16

Fill-level wrote:So if you have an old Cert IV, you have to do an upgrade course for $600 ...Utter Oc:=


I know right.......utter s#!t but these are the hurdles RTO instructors face. It's not like Pt 61 or indeed 141/142 and even Pt 91 isn't enough we have to deal with this crap too!
Mike Becker
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Mike Becker » Sat May 5 2018, 06:49

If you already hold an instructors rating and want to do a renewal, then email me (mb@beckerhelicopters.com)
Might be able to help!!
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hand in pants
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby hand in pants » Sat May 5 2018, 22:32

This is what we get when we allow academics to have a say in how we do something they haven't/can't.
They have turned a strait forward sensible process into drivel. Courses we don't need, changes we don't need, increases in cost we can't afford and all for no improvement in the pilots we produce.
Please tell me why an actively working instructor needs to "renew" his rating. This has always amazed me. Okay, I'm not doing instructing for a living, I only play at it these days so yes, I'd expect a check ride with a CFI every couple of years. But someone who's doing it full time for a school, in my opinion, not required.
Hand in Pants, I'm thinking, my god, that IS huge!!!!!!!!
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Heliduck » Sun May 6 2018, 07:56

The lawyers who write this drivel should have to sit the Bar exam every 12 months.
"Plan twice...Fly once"
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Evil Twin » Sun May 6 2018, 08:12

Heliduck wrote:The lawyers who write this drivel should have to sit the Bar exam every 12 months.


But they'd all fail. I just think they spelt lawyer wrong and it stuck...
Mike Becker
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Mike Becker » Tue May 8 2018, 01:20

FYI.

CASR Part 61 FIR is sufficient and is a TAE equivalent.
Below taken from the ASQA website

https://www.asqa.gov.au/standards/faqs? ... lification

What constitutes a ‘diploma or higher qualification in adult education’?

An adult education qualification must have a focus on training and assessing adults. The qualification does not need to include the words ‘adult education’ in the title; however, units completed within the qualification need to demonstrate the skills and knowledge required to train adults. The academic transcript or record of results for the qualification will provide the evidence to demonstrate this.
Examples of adult education qualifications include:
 CASR Part 61 Flight or Simulator Instructor
 Army Recruit Instructor
 Graduate Certificate or Diploma in TESOL
 Graduate Diploma in Adult and Vocational Education and Training
 Graduate Diploma of Adult Language, Literacy and Numeracy
 Master of education or Doctoral degree with an adult education focus.

Yes we have 10 full time people acting as lawyers trolling through the various regulations to ensure we can do 1 hour in a helicopter!!!
5 for CASA and 5 for everyone else!!! No cost to industry
Mick Cullen
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Mick Cullen » Sun May 13 2018, 11:02

Examples of adult education qualifications include:
 CASR Part 61 Flight or Simulator Instructor


Woohoo! Heard back from another source that has confirmed this too.

Thanks Mike - that has saved me a lot of heartache and study. No more developing a training program for a legal secretary which is what the course work had me doing. :D
tinman
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby tinman » Tue May 15 2018, 03:18

So let me get this straight -


on the CASA website it says:

What are the transition rules for the flight instructor rating?

If you held an instructor rating or training authorisation (such as a CAR 5.21 conversion training approval) prior to 1 September 2014, you are entitled to a Part 61 flight instructor rating and appropriate endorsements. However, you cannot continue conducting training after 1 September 2018 unless you:

- hold a tertiary qualification in teaching or
- hold a certificate IV in training and assessment or
- complete an approved course of training in principles and methods of instruction.


https://www.casa.gov.au/regulations-and ... or-ratings


But from what Mike says a few posts back, a Flight Instructor Rating is a diploma or higher qualification in adult education, in other words, Cert IV equivalent?

Anyone tell me if I'm missing something here??
Mike Becker
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Re: CERT IV Workplace Training - Helo Instructors - Best options?

Postby Mike Becker » Tue May 15 2018, 06:23

OK, so do not confuse the requirements for an RTO as opposed to a CASA FIR.

I answered the requirement for the FIR working for a RTO

So what about CASA. Well what they print and then what they say and then what they make you do can often conflict but in reading

You should either
1. Already hold some form of a tertiary teaching qualification (can either tick that box or not if you have trained as a teacher at some point in time so evidently you know how to teach) OR
2. GO and complete a Cert IV in training and assessing so that you have learnt how to teach OR
3. Do a CASA approved course in Principles and Meathods of Instruction (which is actually part of the FIR common competencies) and you are covered

If you look at my previous post a FIR is good for the RTO requirements so we have done a ful circle and a complete FIR course with a CASA school should be all you need.

Now heres the rub. Some CASA person comes along and says otherwise and we are back to where we started. The biggest issue we are all having is there is so much rule making, interpreting and rubbish going on that no one really knows any more a correct definitive answer. To me this is actually very unsafe.

UNtil otherwise advised. Do a PMI, FIR and crack on!

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