To pay or not to pay??????????

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Hugh Bosh
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Hugh Bosh » Thu Sep 29 2011, 12:15

pj wrote:Tell me who is in the wrong here. My company that pays bare licenced pilots... Or the guys who dont pay or pay $50 bucks a day... To me the worst ones are the one who could employ newbies but dont...................... :shock:


If you aren't paying the award, you're just talking about a difference of degree, not kind.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Fri Sep 30 2011, 02:00

Hugh. I assume you are an instructor but I assume you do not own the business. Please tell me what you got paid when you first started and what conditions you worked under.
From my research over 80 % of bare licenced pilots dont get paid or are paid a small amount, or dont fly at all ,or exceed flight and duty or weight limitations.
Many bare licenced pilots dont not know how to fly, navigate, talk to passengers, fly efficiently, many have to be limited in what flights they can do, They may have a piece of paper but thats about it.
Please come up with a solution that will work, as this is what im trying to do.
I have had 13 responces from bare/low time pilots so far and two over 1000 hour pilots. Compared to some I pay 150 times the amount they are getting paid, some 3 times the amount they get paid and some 30 % more . I have not had any responce from anyone who as a bare licenced pilot that is getting paid the award or above.
Any pilots that are getting the award as a bare licenced pilots please contact me...............
Some of the responces and conversation I have had , pilots are working exceedingly long days, exceeding weight limitations and some of the pilots I have spoken to are working 7 days a week. Others arent doing any flying.
The system is not working
I am trying to improve it so if you want to help this industry then support me, ring up those companies that dont pay their pilots or pay a small amount. Ring up those companies that could but dont employ low time pilots.
Can I make it any clearer
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Ag-Rotor » Fri Sep 30 2011, 02:18

What actualy is a bare assed licence holder straight out of flight school actualy qualified to do that is worth paying for ?? Have you checked out how much an apprentice plumber getts paid and for how long he has to work at it to get qualified. These jocks think that a fist full of $'s and six months at a flight school somehow entitles them to the big $'s .....give me a break.
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bangequalsbad
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby bangequalsbad » Fri Sep 30 2011, 10:12

Ag-Rotor wrote:What actualy is a bare assed licence holder straight out of flight school actualy qualified to do that is worth paying for ?? Have you checked out how much an apprentice plumber getts paid and for how long he has to work at it to get qualified. These jocks think that a fist full of $'s and six months at a flight school somehow entitles them to the big $'s .....give me a break.


Wow...nice rant. I guess you are a hardcore, work for free, gotta pay your dues, walked to school in the freezing rain kind of guy. $44,135.00 for a "bare licensed" pilot for a year must entail fairly small hands if your fists are full. I know mine can hold a considerable amount more. Didn't we all start out as "bare licensed"? Do our Kiwi cousins get all the jobs because they have "real" commercial licenses that come with night VFR, sling, mountain, AND Low level all wrapped in? :roll:

PJ. Sorry, I just got to clear this up, do you pay the award or not? If you do...bravo. I think it is great that in this current economic climate you manage to obey the law. All credit. And just to save you a post, no, I don't have my own business. I don't know what your costs are. I don't know how hard it is to own a helicopter. What I do know is this. You either do it right, or don't do it at all.

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Billy Hill
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Billy Hill » Fri Sep 30 2011, 11:08

Ag-Rotor wrote:What actualy is a bare assed licence holder straight out of flight school actualy qualified to do that is worth paying for ?? These jocks think that a fist full of $'s and six months at a flight school somehow entitles them to the big $'s .....give me a break.


Maybe some of these jocks worked their bare asses off to get there in the first place so you think they should get nothing at all?

Ag-Rotor wrote: Have you checked out how much an apprentice plumber getts paid and for how long he has to work at it to get qualified.


Does the apprentice have to fork out a fist full of dollars to get paid a pittance? Maybe he can just turn up for work with his CK's hanging out the back of his shorts and take home his miserable pay and go home to mummy.

Ag-Rotor wrote:What actualy is a bare assed licence holder straight out of flight school actualy qualified to do that is worth paying for ?? Have you checked out how much an apprentice plumber getts paid and for how long he has to work at it to get qualified. These jocks think that a fist full of $'s and six months at a flight school somehow entitles them to the big $'s .....give me a break.


Did you start with experience? No, you had to do it hard so everyone else has to as well the corn fed still on the nipple spoilt mummy's boy barstards. Yours seems like the attitude that pj is up against in his endeavor to improve conditions in this industry.



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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Bootsmadeforwalking » Fri Sep 30 2011, 11:55

Can't hold my tongue any longer.........

I've had many jobs over the years and performed a wide variety of different tasks.
I've worked as a copper for 11 years scraping bodies of the road, telling families their loved ones have died, getting shot at and being beaten up, as well as the lighter side of giving a ticket to some kid for not wearing a bike helmet. All for the enormous some of 40k. I worked for a big blue chip company off the street driving a crane for 100k. My latest job is labouring for a concreter, again off the street, no qualifications, no experience, and get 25 bucks an hour. It seems the more you put into training for your job the worse the conditions.

As for aviation.... I have a CPL(h) and (a) MECIR three renewals and endorsements along the way. Cost to me... well over 100k, my last job was 45k and that was considered fantastic pay. But that was 50 hr weeks (private ops) And yet there are some operators and individuals who think that they can treat 'newbies' with complete contempt. This bull s!@t attitude of some of you 'back in my day" is what is keeping this industry in the 1950's you are the very reason that workers took matters into their own hands and created unions and look where thats got us. Pull your heads out of your backsides and modernise this industry so these poor "incompetent, immature, ignorant low timers' don't have to put up with the crap you did and be treated with some human decency.
Yes, I've swept and hosed hangars, cleaned and polished aeroplanes, even made the boss coffee and served drinks to his mates, worked in remote communities and endured all the challenges faced in that environment.

NOw I'm trying to get another R/W position, but after reading this i\I'm wondering why bother with all the crap.......
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Hugh Bosh » Fri Sep 30 2011, 23:42

pj wrote:Please tell me what you got paid when you first started and what conditions you worked under.


Why? What point are you trying to make? Statements about how hard you had to do it as a newbie aren't particularly relevant to the debate.

pj wrote: Please come up with a solution that will work, as this is what im trying to do.


I've done that. It's called an industry traineeship. You can't invent your own, illegal solution just because it sounds slightly more palatable than not employing newly licenced pilots (Bare pilots? Sounds a bit risque really...)

pj wrote: Any pilots that are getting the award as a bare licenced pilots please contact me...............


Any who aren't, please contact FWA.

pj wrote: Can I make it any clearer


Yes. Do you pay the award or not?

*edited for spelling
Last edited by Hugh Bosh on Mon Oct 3 2011, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby SuperF » Fri Sep 30 2011, 23:52

We don't take on new pilots as pilots, they start as ground crew. Gotta be around $20/hr depending on age and ability. Real young guys might be down around $17 or $18/hr, try to make sure that they are living at home, or can live really cheap. After a while we let them have a bit of a play, ie ferry flights with senior pilots etc, then if necessary put them through type ratings. They would be lucky to get 100 hrs in first year, and are a loader/crewman not a pilot. Gotta remember all that is in NZ pesos, not the mighty $AUS. But u do get to support the AB's. :D

After a year or so you know if they can fly or if they are going to make it with us. We are probably no different to a lot of ag/utility companies, in that we generally don't know what we are doing next month, a lot of it depends on the weather, so it's very hard to plan. Lots of people can't handle constant change, if that's the case, go fly scenics, or offshore, EMS, or something where you are either on roster or off, and away you go, rather than having no work on Friday for the next week ,and then end the week having knocked out 50 or 100 hrs... Or getting calls at all times of the night and day to go flying.

When we get guys into flying then if they have potential we put them through a NZ ag rating on a turbine, and pay starts to move up a bit. They should be on $25/hr when flying 2-300hrs /yr, plus either hourly while flying or % of revenue, while flying. Also try to make it in their interest to make us a good hourly rate, so pay more if they can get more/hr than our required rate. Makes them think about how they organize their jobs.

After they have worked off the cost of the ag rating, or really start making me good money, then we pay more. No contract etc for ag ratings or type ratings, we figure if we are stupid enough to give someone a rating and the next day they leave, then that is or own stupid fault. Also, I don't want someone flying my helicopter if they don't want to work for me, they are welcome to leave, all or staff know that, and so far we have only had one guy leave that doesn't talk to us anymore, not a pilot. All the rest still come back to talk about the good ol times.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby SuperF » Sat Oct 1 2011, 00:02

Ag-Rotor wrote:What actualy is a bare assed licence holder straight out of flight school actualy qualified to do that is worth paying for ?? Have you checked out how much an apprentice plumber getts paid and for how long he has to work at it to get qualified.



Ag rotor, the bare a$$ed blond with the nice kahunas, is worth a h3ll of a lot more than most of u hairy a$$ed guys on here... :lol:

5 years for a plumber isn't it? They start on next to nothing. Minimum wage job.

Don't compare new pilots to doctors, lawyers, accountants either, not many pilots did 3-5 years at uni, and then go and start on $35-40 k/year. In NZ that means that you have spent way more than a pilot on ur education, and have a great big loan to show for it.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby CYHeli » Sat Oct 1 2011, 07:41

SuperF wrote:Don't compare new pilots to doctors, lawyers, accountants either

One good reason to compare flying to university is that the uni is not required to find the new graduate a job, but for some reason we expect the helicopter school to bend over backwards to find the new CPL a job. The new CPL might get lucky with the school, but all you are buying from a school is a qualification, a job is a bonus, sorry.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby bangequalsbad » Sat Oct 1 2011, 08:35

And no response from PJ...
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby HELiPAD » Sat Oct 1 2011, 08:44

I called up my friends who have graduated uni. Lawyers student loan the highest out of both my friends - 61K. Doctors ranging from 50-100K(ish), Web designers 15K, IT 40K... Lets have a look at helicopter pilots... in NZ one school in Auckland offers (just the flying part) for 99K + Theory + uniforms + everything else that you going to need for your exams AKA 105K+-. My math was pretty good when I went to school and I am pretty sure 105K seems to be the highest number out of all these figures... Maybe its just me...

Now one of my friends is employed at DLA Philips Fox. With a starting salary of 105K. The other one is not that fortunate as she could not find a job and is now thinking of what to do with her future. Considering doing some other postgraduate study. No one promised her a job and she understands that it was her decision along the way to peruse this. As far as I see things our industry is in the same place, but unlike the law firms who continue to pay well (lets face it who would want to become a lawyer if the money wasn't good) the industry assumes the supply/demand system. Basically lowering the wage as low as it can possibly be "acceptable" to some of the pilots.

Back in the old days a University degree meant that you had a job. Now days thats not the case, everyone knows that. There is also a bigger supply of graduate lawyers right now (in NZ and US at least... (No one has any money left to sue... or to liquidate if they win/lose)). Its the same deal in aviation, our "old days" are over. And have been for... quite some time now that I come to think of it.

Okay, Helicopter Pilots. More supply than demand. The industry takes advantage of that by paying the people who do get the chance to peruse their career way bellow the minimum legal wage. Because this practice is so widespread now, it is somehow now become okay. Much like mass killings of jews during WWII. Everyone did it so it was acceptable.

Now I do not want to by all means imply that both are on the same scale. Of course they are not, no one would ever think so. But its an example of something that we do that goes against our principles, but for one reason or an other we continue on doing. Take a child and 1000 germans from WWII and tell them to shoot that child and I doubt that anyone will pull the trigger. But if you get 100 children, and have 10 people fire at them the rest of the soldiers will follow. It has now become okay to shoot children. (A very simplified "in a nutshell" scenario)

I yet to meet a person who is proud that they are paying their pilots bellow the minimum wage. I meet a lot who are proud that they are paying them at all... Oh yeah, thats the way to go; lower the bar bellow current situation and compare. Hey you guys who are working for nothing, you dorks! Be thankful that you have a job... oh I can do one better than that. Oy you guys who are looking for a job, be thankful that you still have the money to do so... Oh yeah I am on a roll here. Hey you CPL holders with no way of getting into the industry be thankful that you had the privilege to get a helicopter license... oh jeesh. That makes anything sound better. Oh and yeah, lets call it the "Award wage" making it sound like its something that should be aspired to, like getting MEIFR on your license. Its called the minimum wage for a reason, its the minimum aka the lowest anyone is allowed to pay. Call it the minimum wage and stop sprinkling sugar on it and calling it candy.

Anyone wondered what the world would be like if only Budget Airlines would be allowed to fly? Because now you don't have to, just have a look at the helicopter industry and it would be clear as day.

To newbies and everyone who do not understand their position. Mexican illegal immigrants are getting paid more than you, doesn't it make you angry... Oh wait it does... but you wouldn't do anything about it because you would be shooting yourself in the foot. Risking to never fly again. Way to go to make enemies for the rest of your life and ensuring that the hard money that you earned, the divorce that you went through counts for nothing. Better do what everyone else is doing and just sit tight and don't speak. PJ, this is the obstacle you face. I admire what you are trying to do, and the fact that you are >actually< trying to do something about it. But as long as this continues you will be lucky to chip away at a mountain. I would love to hear your suggestions.


I doubt anyone went into helicopters for the money. The simple truth is that many will not have the opportunity to even do their training, from those who do their training select few will get a job, the lucky ones will build hours. Fair enough, but for gods sake pay the minimum wage. I can't believe I just wrote 8 paragraphs on why a person with a qualification (forget how much it cost) should be earning the minimum wage once they find a job which was never promised to them. This should not happen, and this is not about whining and bitching its about doing what is right and fair. Something that seems to have been lost for many.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby SuperF » Sat Oct 1 2011, 12:37

Sorry, we are in NZ, minimum wage is $13-$14/hr, not sure how much, but we are paying OVER minimum wage in NZ. And you won't find first year lawyers, doctors or accountants, in NZ, on $105,000 pa in this country, unless they are really lucky, or dad owns the firm. Second, third, tenth year accountants are lucky to be making that much.

Obviously the cost of a law degree have dropped if you can spend five years at uni and it only cost $61k. I spent almost that much in three years on drinking and skiing alone, let alone books and study. But then I was there to enjoy life, not study too hard, thats why I decided to fly, life is for fun, not hard work...
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Luka » Sat Oct 1 2011, 18:59

Well for what it's worth it cost me NZ $55K for my Geology degree, and 4 years study. I started on $120 K Aussie, FIFO 4/2.

My CPL (H) cost me NZ $100K and I did it over a year of weekends. I started flying on $40K US, and after 1 year $80K NZ.

Yes I make a s#!t load more money as a geologist, but have a s#!t load more fun flying helicopters, and if I want to make money again I will go back to being a geologist.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Blade Puppeteer » Sun Oct 2 2011, 00:48

Hey Guys,
Coming from a "bare" pilots point of view.
I am more than happy to work for minimal wage. As long as I can pay my rent each week, have a hot meal every night and even a possible beer on the weekend.
I think I speak for most of us freshys when I say , we are generally just excited to learn the industry and iching to get flying whatever the cost. If I have to clean the hanger for 6 months then I’ll make that hanger spotless. If I have to walk the hard roads then I’ll walk the hard roads.
Besides we didn't get into flying Helicopters for the cash anyway. We all knew the money wasn’t any good before we started the training.

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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Pegs » Sun Oct 2 2011, 01:25

When you say you are willing to work for "minimal wage" do you mean AWARD minimal wage or below it? Walking the hard roads doesn't mean you you have to prostitute yourself out for less that you are entitled too by LAW, it means turning up for work 5 mins early, working hard, when the boss is looking and when he isn't, having a friendly nature and getting along with people, willing to learn and do the hanger rat stuff along with the occasional flying, and realizing that as you gain experience on the occasional hr's flying you are given those hrs will slowly increase and you will be given more work. No ONE said anywhere that it meant you had to work for less that the LAW says you are entitled too.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby helimusterer » Sun Oct 2 2011, 01:51

Hugh Bosh wrote:

pj wrote: Can I make it any clearer


Yes. Do you pay the award or not?


bangequalsbad wrote:And no response from PJ...


well maybe the bloke is just busy running his business and hasn't had time to respond, but I too am interested in the answers to the above question, and the ones I posed on the other thread he was frequenting as well. http://www.bladeslapper.com/content/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=521&p=38436

Wasn't having a go at you PJ they were genuine questions from someone who would like to see changes happen too and will get behind whoever it is that wants to work to make it happen. So the ball is yours, or the court, or whatever its meant to be? Please fill us in on how you plan to make this industry pay a decent wage to all pilots, especially new ones.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Oct 2 2011, 05:25

Hugh, heli, bangs Im Having some days off.
short answer re pay. One of my pilots with around 300 total time took home before tax over $1000.00 last week. All without exceeding F&D limits or overweight. As well he was able to sunbake and swim on Whitehaven Beach 4 times and fly scantly dressed girls around.
I have another blog re low time pilots , so I will respond to some other questions Monday or Tuesday.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby bangequalsbad » Sun Oct 2 2011, 07:20

pj wrote:Hugh, heli, bangs Im Having some days off.
short answer re pay. One of my pilots with around 300 total time took home before tax over $1000.00 last week. All without exceeding F&D limits or overweight. As well he was able to sunbake and swim on Whitehaven Beach 4 times and fly scantly dressed girls around.
I have another blog re low time pilots , so I will respond to some other questions Monday or Tuesday.

:D Hope your having a few nice relaxing days.

I too am not having a go at you PJ, just cutting (perhaps a bit quickly) to the point. Helicopter operators would make good politicians the way they are able to convince people that what they are getting is good, and sometimes (perhaps after a few thousands hours of hearing the same rhetoric ad nauseam Oc:= ), it's nice to hear it told straight.
While $1000 a week would sound AMAZING to the lower hour crew...this pilot should also be making NO LESS than $848.75 pre-tax for every other week of the year. So for this fantastic week of flitting about with attractive women, he/she made around $160 more than MINIMUM WAGE.

Think...about...it.

There are opportunities out there for the right people with the right attitude. When I hear of people getting pushed around in wage negotiations I wonder if they get pushed around in the cockpit as well. Decision making starts A LONG WAY, AND A LONG TIME, from the machine you might be flying. Remember this little fledglings.

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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby mhale71 » Sun Oct 2 2011, 09:10

pj wrote:......before tax over $1000.00 last week. ........ As well he was able to sunbake and swim on Whitehaven Beach 4 times and fly scantly dressed girls around.
........


... sigh.. :cry:

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