To pay or not to pay??????????

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flingwingfox
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby flingwingfox » Thu Sep 22 2011, 08:20

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys!
Ag-Rotor
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Ag-Rotor » Thu Sep 22 2011, 10:57

Monkey's are generaly happy with penuts!!
rotorboy20
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby rotorboy20 » Thu Sep 22 2011, 12:44

Ag-Rotor wrote:Monkey's are generaly happy with penuts!!


You mean the kind of monkeys that have a spelling mistake and a grammar mistake in the one sentence? I rest my case.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby mhale71 » Thu Sep 22 2011, 12:50

I was thinking the type that miss that there are two spelling mistakes there.

I dont wanna start a 'thing', but if you're going to get up him for making a few minor typos, you could have at least structured your own sentence properly.

I mean.. you said :

You mean the kind of monkeys that have a spelling mistake and a grammar mistake in the one sentence? I rest my case.


This should have a 'Do' at the front of it, I can see that its a rhetorical question, and I can see that you're trying to be somewhat snide about it, you may talk like that, but the other guy might say "Monkey-is" when referring to multiple monkeys when he talks in real life.

So why should you get away with typing like you talk, but not Ag-Rotor?

Also, he didn't HAVE a mistake he MADE a mistake. To say "a spelling mistake and a grammar mistake" is poor writing as well, The sentence would have been much better structured as; "a spelling and a grammar mistake," or; "spelling and grammar mistakes."

Also.. What case??

Flame suit: on!.. :D :D
flingwingfox
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby flingwingfox » Thu Sep 22 2011, 13:45

Nicely spotted mhale71. Are you the monkey or the peanut?
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Hugh Bosh
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby Hugh Bosh » Thu Sep 22 2011, 14:01

pj wrote:To all those experts. ... What are you guys doing for low time pilots.................


Well apart from training, mentoring and teaching them on a full-time basis, probably not enough to meet your requirements to have an opinion on what is fair and reasonable it seems. But in relation to this particular topic, I try to get them to think about some of these points:

    I tell them that flying is the best job in the world but that it is still work
    I tell them that a licence is not an entitlement to a career
    I tell them that investing $70K on training is still not an entitlement to a career
    I tell them that ‘working’ for free is never worth it (including those plank drivers who meat bomb for tandem operators in so-called 'private operations')
    I tell them that all CPL holders employed as pilots are entitled BY LAW to the minimum wage as per the award
    I tell them that the award is a safety net, determined by an independant statuatory body (FWA)
    I tell them that any business which pays them less than the award is breaking the law
    I tell them that in Australia, most people believe in the principle of a fair wage for a fair day’s work
    I tell them that for every hour spent in the cockpit, a fair day’s work might include another seven doing other sh!t work
    I tell them that to work for less than the award creates a race to the bottom for wages and conditions for all new pilots
    I tell them that there are far too many new pilots for too few positions
    I tell them that any one who tells them that they are getting a ‘leg up’, ‘a start in the industry’, ‘valuable experience’, ‘a foot in the door’, ‘a break’ or some other platitude in return for less than the award wages is exploiting them.
    I tell them that they will hear the aforementioned excuses for underpayment a lot
    I tell them that if a business needs to employ workers for less than the minimum wage just to keep running, then the business should employ less people
    I tell them that aviation can be a heart-breaking industry, that life is almost always never fair, and that people will often sell their own soul to get a start

If the industry wants to employ pilots and not pay them the award wage, then the industry business owners need to get their collective heads together and come up with a pilot traineeship or some other mechanism to do it legally (A traineeship is an employment and training arrangement, similar to a traditional apprenticeship, through which a training contract binds an employer and a trainee for the period of the traineeship and during which the trainee completes a nationally recognised qualification). I'm genuinely persuaded by your arguements on the need to develop new pilots but there is more to a industry traineeship than showing some punter how things work in your little pond. Industry standards anyone? We can't even get our own representative body together, let alone agree on industry standards for training and development. Hell, we can't even agree on whether employers should be obeying the law or not.

I can think of nothing nobler than giving back to the community by employing people, paying taxes and building a business. Truly! In addition to my day job, I am trying to build up a small business. I hope to one day employ staff but I won't do so unless I get it to the point where it is profitable enough to do it. I'm finding it slow going, frustrating, difficult, exhausting and an almost impossible task. However, crying poor and begging for understanding about how tough business is while you pay gullible and feckless adolescents less than they are entitled to is reprehensible. I’ve had another read of all of these posts and I can’t see anyone saying to you how easy it is to run a business. Cleary, it’s not. I imagine though that it’s a damn sight easier to run a business if you’re underpaying your staff than it is if you are doing the right thing, both morally and legally
Last edited by Hugh Bosh on Thu Sep 22 2011, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.
rotorboy20
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby rotorboy20 » Thu Sep 22 2011, 14:32

mhale71 wrote:I was thinking the type that miss that there are two spelling mistakes there.

I dont wanna start a 'thing', but if you're going to get up him for making a few minor typos, you could have at least structured your own sentence properly.

I mean.. you said :

You mean the kind of monkeys that have a spelling mistake and a grammar mistake in the one sentence? I rest my case.


This should have a 'Do' at the front of it, I can see that its a rhetorical question, and I can see that you're trying to be somewhat snide about it, you may talk like that, but the other guy might say "Monkey-is" when referring to multiple monkeys when he talks in real life.

So why should you get away with typing like you talk, but not Ag-Rotor?

Also, he didn't HAVE a mistake he MADE a mistake. To say "a spelling mistake and a grammar mistake" is poor writing as well, The sentence would have been much better structured as; "a spelling and a grammar mistake," or; "spelling and grammar mistakes."

Also.. What case??

Flame suit: on!.. :D :D


Are you for real???? lol Check what you just wrote
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black duck
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby black duck » Thu Sep 22 2011, 23:57

"If the industry wants to employ pilots and not pay them the award wage, then the industry business owners need to get their collective heads together and come up with a pilot traineeship or some other mechanism to do it legally (A traineeship is an employment and training arrangement, similar to a traditional apprenticeship, through which a training contract binds an employer and a trainee for the period of the traineeship and during which the trainee completes a nationally recognised qualification)."


Bingo Hugh, it works in every other industry.
"It's wabbit seathon! It' duck seathon! I dare you to shoot me now!"
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Fri Sep 23 2011, 07:03

Hugh Bosh. I agree with what you are saying. Yes I will try to start a type of apprentership scheme. But tell me when that bare pilot has finished training with you, and he walks in my door, he really doesnt know how to fly, he is scared to talk on the radio, he is slow and unsure when flying. He need his jobs to be selected to his experience level, Do you believe he should get the same pay as a jetranger pilot with 3, ooo hours, see I dont, and because not many other people like me have the balls to tell all what I pay and how i do things, you wount hear from them. The ones who dont pay their pilots at all, or pay $50.oo a day, or make their pilots work 14 hour days 7 days a week. Where are there comments. Where is their two cents worth........I dont see them.
So once again if you want to help this industry then get up them. Or get up the companies that dont employ low time pilots. I was not having a go at you before, you sound as if you do give a dam about the industry and we need more people like you.
I could easily do what most other business do and say to a pilot come back when you have over 500 hours. it would save me alot of time, it would save me alot of money, insurance premiums, and stress, but i dont.
mhale71
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby mhale71 » Fri Sep 23 2011, 07:25

rotorboy20 wrote:
Are you for real???? lol Check what you just wrote


I can make as many errors as i want (as long as its still legible) because Im not getting up people for making typos in a thread that isnt about writing. If youre gonna hassle Ag-rotor for imperfect grammar and spelling, then you better be perfect yourself, Something you proved not to be the case with your last 2 posts... "lol"


And Flingwingfox; I am neither, Im a cashew.... salted. :roll:
HELiPAD
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby HELiPAD » Fri Sep 23 2011, 08:17

Interesting thread. I would like to thank those who sprinkle sugar all over it and then proceed to call it candy. No, really, lets take away the price of the qualification, how hard my students have to work in order to get it. Lets take away the ultimatum they face between their passion for helicopters and their family... friends... pets... food... water... air?... and the determination to go out on a limb to find work. If you are employing someone you must pay them the minimum wage in this country. Period. The guy who cleans toilets does, the guys at Mc Donnalds does too, if you are employing people for less than minimum wage you are breaking the law. Honestly, if a company is not paying more than the minimum wage to its pilots, I wonder where else its cutting corners. If paying your employees $4/hr is okay... does pulling the circuit breaker during the flight to save a few dollars is okay too? Or perhaps fudging the paper work so you can charge your students more? Or leaving flights unlogged so you can get the true 20 Trillion hour lifespan of the R22 Blades... Jokes aside, I highly doubt the people who employ others bellow the minimum wage in Australia do not conduct other illicit operations or cut corners in other places as well. Some companies genuinely offer experience in order for the pilot to get a real job somewhere else, but during the weekends etc while the other person has their old job during the week days, compared to others who make pilots work 60+ hours with no pay what so ever. How are they supposed to survive... oh and they are supposed to be thankful to you too. For you giving them... a break... oh no a foot in the door... wait that was last week, today its "a position from which you can evolve from"... Yeah thats a lot better, it implies progress. Make them work like hell, sweeping the floors, cleaning toilets, doing admin work etc and every now and then flying (If they are lucky). So select few (I would like to up that to "some") of the employers in Helicopter industry think is as follows: "The guy with a 70K qualification who sweeps my floors, degreases the helicopters each day, cleans the toilet, etc... is not entitled to get payed the same amount as the guy who flips burgers all day, or the guy who sweeps the floors all day with crap all experience, qualifications, numeracy skills etc... because they have to "nurture" them in their first job"... Helicopters aside, everyone was at the starting point at some time during their career, they of course had to get paid less than the minimum wage too... oh wait, Lawyers - Starting Salary 100K+- (Depending which specialty and firm, but at least x2 the min wage), Accounting 50K, Website Design 50K, Taxi Driver 45K+, Fixed wing pilots 40K+, Mental Health worker 50K+, etc. So these are all entry positions and... they pay more than the minimum wage...? But helicopter Pilots for some reason exempt from this because.... uhm... hmmm... well... I honestly don't know... has everyone undercut one an other so much that everyone is struggling to make ends meet... is that the reason...? Well, I guess we are all as bad as one an other then... This is a truly sad. Ask anyone what they think you get paid, they will always dream up a figure that then makes you dream... unless of course they confuse your monthly income with weekly... No one who did their homework flies helis for money, but, being able to buy food and pay rent should not be considered luxury especially when applying for a position where certain qualifications are required... 70K+ of qualifications.

Dear Helicopter Industry, if you are not going to take care of people who you hire, people who you hire will not take care of you. I feel I am upmost fortunate that I am with a company... make that my employer who I consider to be my friend who cares about how I am each day, and makes sure I am okay to fly and that my girlfriend is well, doesn't put pressure on me to fly with students in 25Kt gusting winds by paying me for only for the time I fly. I can concentrate on giving my students now the best training they can possibly get from me instead of trying to burn as many hours as possible to be able to afford to get to work each day. I doubt pilots would be looking at their first job as "hour building" but rather an entry position from which he/she can advance from within the company. Too many times "hour building position" comes out of people mouths... especially instructors mouths. I had a few of those during my training and boy. You truly notice the difference between those who are there to instruct and to provide you with skills and those who are there to "build hours".

If I would do this all again I would change one thing... never fly with an instructor who combines instructing, and hour building in the same sentence.
flingwingfox
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby flingwingfox » Fri Sep 23 2011, 09:40

I can make as many errors as i want (as long as its still legible) because Im not getting up people for making typos in a thread that isnt about writing. If youre gonna hassle Ag-rotor for imperfect grammar and spelling, then you better be perfect yourself, Something you proved not to be the case with your last 2 posts... "lol"

Guys, guys, relax!!

I think rotor boy was making was a tongue in cheek comment regarding the whole monkey-peanut thing, whereas mhale71, your detailed criticisms come across as more personal. Chill out boys, no one is perfect! Not even me :D :D

Oh and by the way, Brazilians are my favourite nut :D
rotorboy20
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby rotorboy20 » Fri Sep 23 2011, 09:53

"I can make as many errors as i want (as long as its still legible) because Im not getting up people for making typos in a thread that isnt about writing. "

Are you sure?
mhale71
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby mhale71 » Fri Sep 23 2011, 11:59

Bah... Myne were 'sposed to be tongue in cheek as well, thats what all the silly smileys were for...



Anyway... this is a tangent.. what were we talking about again?.. pay?
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Sat Sep 24 2011, 03:13

Just to clarify something I am talking about pilots with under 500 hours. Why 500 hours well insurance companies seem to like that number. I have found most pilots can perform efficiently by 500 hours. I have paid pilots up to $250 per day just to fly around in either a KH-4 or R-44, with the odd stop off at Whitehaven beach for 1.5 hours to have a sun bake.....
Last year one of my pilots within a 6 month period earnt over $25,500 without exceeding any flight and duty requirements, without flying any over weight passengers. Other pilots have left my company to go fly jetrangers and have had a pay decrease.
I started this blog because I kept getting pilots coming through here offering to work for nothing. I have not employeed/ given a job to any of these pilots but as one guy said a while ago I have been travelling around Australia for 10 months and can not get a start anywhere. All he wanted was to get into the industry. To gain some experience, I could not afford to employ / pay him . But he made me re think my logic of the past 20 years.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby bangequalsbad » Sat Sep 24 2011, 05:22

Hugh Bosh, HELiPAD,pj,
Thank you for starting/replying to a thread that is a pivotal problem in the industry. You other grammar twits can piss off, the adults are talking.

The survival of the fittest has turned into a war of attrition here. If no young pilots get a "break", they will not go onto getting the "500hrs", then the "1000hrs turbine", then the "multi-IFR-NVG-EMS-ABS-EBDS-bingo biscut-super mega awesome hrs". We will all have to source our pilots from a pool of kids who's parents payed their way into there own R22/44 business that has gone broke, or (shudder) ex-military pilots, and they will STILL need all of the care and supervision you would have to pour into some ringer who has cut balls from bulls and ridden horses his/her whole life...BUT...the "break" includes the minimum wage.
If you do not pay the award, no matter what you call it, then all you are doing is EXPLOITING. If you have no job for the person...sorry barry...no job here mate. Simple.
Reference the 412 driver ad. Must pay own in country expenses, minimum payment, copilot for longline operations. I mean, c'mon! If you have a contract for a 412 to be doing longline overseas, the least you could do is pay for s#!t on tour! That dude is a "sugar" coater from way back. I wonder why the first copilot went? Maybe McDonalds needed another toilet cleaner.
To pay or not to pay? No option.
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby dmfoqs » Sun Sep 25 2011, 05:04

Bangequalsbad. Tell me who is in the wrong here. My company that pays bare licenced pilots, trains them in many varied ways to be good safe pilots and assists them in their carrier, all within the flight and duty requirements and weight limitations. Or the guys who dont pay or pay $50 bucks a day, or the guys who make the newbies exceed their flight and duty and exceed weight limitations, or the slack companies that could employ newbie but dont cause they couldnt be bothered, they waite until the pilots have 500 or 800 hours, then employ them. To me the worst ones are the one who could employ newbies but dont...................... :shock:
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby HELiPAD » Sun Sep 25 2011, 06:59

Dear PJ, the company who employes bare licensed pilots and gives them valuable experience while paying them enough to live on conservatively and trains them in many varied ways to be good safe pilots and assists them in their carrier, all within the flight and duty requirements and weight limitations is better than a company that does not pay or pay $50 bucks a day, or the guys who make the newbies exceed their flight and duty and exceed weight limitations, or the slack companies that could employ newbie but dont cause they couldnt be bothered. I hope that this has answered your question.

Kind Regards

HELiPAD
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby SuperF » Sun Sep 25 2011, 11:04

i like peanuts. mmmmmmmmm eta salted peanuts... :lol:
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Re: To pay or not to pay??????????

Postby bangequalsbad » Mon Sep 26 2011, 08:16

Thanks HELiPAD, saved me a heap of typing. :wink:

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