Kakadu crash.

[bladepitch]

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.9ne ... 4fc6ea4c16

[Peter Latham]

I have only posted once before on any website and it happened to be this one some time ago. May be because l am old or hold no interest in self promotion. Both l would suggest. The pilot of this accident is Andy Stott. You would be hard pressed to find a better person than Andy. Humble, shy, l could go on. Ag spraying in the early days, mustering with East Coast Helicopters Caloundra Quensland, instructing with Professional Helicopter Services Moorabbin Victoria, Bristow multi engine helicopters Australia wide, and a lot more. Then returning to his passion for the bush with Jayrow Helicopters. I'm not sure if anyone walked away from this accident? Andy certainly did not. I'm not sure of his exact medical condition either, but it's not great. I am however sure there are many Andy Stotts, l only know one and l hope he recovers soon. Peter Latham.

[skypig]

Nice second post Peter.
Thanks for sharing.

Like you, I’m hoping for a quick recovery from all involved.

[merlo]

I worked with Andy many years ago while with Jayrow. What a true gentleman.

I wish him a speedy recovery.

[County]

Wishing these fellas a speedy recovery.
Anyone got any thoughts on the safety factor of national parks policy of have a 3’rd person, ie Observer on board during culling operations?

[havick]

Hope Stotty has a speedy recovery. Was great to fly on fires with.

[Longrass]

Wishing these fellas a speedy recovery.
Anyone got any thoughts on the safety factor of national parks policy of have a 3’rd person, ie Observer on board during culling operations?

I think the real issue is the effectiveness of the shooters, I.e. lethality. I have no idea on the skill of the shooter in question, but from my experience, the majority of these so called park staff are woeful shooters, hence the need for a spotter (which is really a greeny who is reporting kill/no kill). Using a Vietnam era M1A with open sights was past its used by date in the 90’s. There are much better firearms, that are more ergonomic and the use of red dots should be mandatory. This is a task that should be fully contracted out. 1 shooter, 1 pilot, R44, 100% lethality rate. There is no excuse for wounded animals and no need for spotters or turbines.

[skypig]

For information.

From ‘the other” forum.
Yesterday:

“Those who know Stotty or who worked with him, he is in a bad way at the Alfred Hospital.
Spinal surgery tomorrow. If you want to call Reception and send your regards he would appreciate it.
Thanks.”

[hand in pants]

Longrass and County, really. You think now is the time to slag off the shooter?

If you don't like the way it's done, go and personally speak to the people running the show instead of sniping at people doing as their job.

[tailrotor]

I don’t think they are really trying to slag the shooter, I actually know Fred (one of the rangers) and Hes a very nice bloke. I’m sure there isn’t a single person here who doesn’t wish all involved a speedy and full recovery.

I think they are More trying to slag off the system of shooting two up in an old jet ranger which I agree is a terrible system, personally I would much, much rather shoot with one experienced professional shooter in a R44 any day of the week.

But that’s just my opinion and when did anyone with experience in aviation have a say in aviation safety for the government

[County]

I was only asking opinion on 3rd person on board a culling operation.
National Parks require you to carry a shooter and an observation person. I don’t believe this is safe and have never flown these operations because of that.

[County]

No pun intended to anyone on board

[487072]

Why is carrying a navigator unsafe and how did it contribute to this accident?

[bangequalsbad]

Why is carrying a navigator unsafe and how did it contribute to this accident?

Looking subjectively at this, without knowing any of the parties involved, I would reply to this as such.

1) Limit exposure to risk. You could reasonably argue that this operation could be 33% less harmful by removing 33% of the people. If the argument is that the 3rd person is ACTUALLY required for navigation purposes...then you need to look at the operation.
2) I bet old mate (3rd person) wishes he didn’t have to do it anymore.
3)I’ve never flown a machine that flew better with more weight in it.

Keep it simple. Limit the exposure. Prepare for the worst.

Bang “Only child” equalsbad.

[County]

Flying aerial culling opps is not like tourist flight. You are operating an aircraft at low level, constantly keeping shooter in optimum shooting position. Power V weight is a major issue. The 3rd person is a cupcake / joy ride factor. As mentioned there is. 33% weight factor you don’t need. Looking at this crash photos the helicopter hit the ground very hard for an undetermined reason. With 1/3 of the load not in there it gravity would have sucked 1/3 less.

[487072]

I must remember to have a cupcake/joyride next time I navigate for an aerial shoot in between recording kills, telling the pilot where the boundaries are, making sure we don’t shoot on private property, making sure there are no members of the public in the shoot area, advising the shooter about whether he can shoot stray stock, watching where the rest of the mob go while the pilot and shooter are staring at the ground focussed on the animal they are aiming at, watching for powerlines, letting the pilot know when wedgetail eagles are in his flight path, making SAR calls, and accepting full responsibility on behalf of the hiring agency in order to remove any possibility of liability on the pilot or shooter should they fly over someone’s property that doesn’t support aerial shooting.

[487072]

Oh and 60kg is 4% of 1451kg (ie MTOW of jetranger). Not 33%.

[helmet spider]

Firstly I wish the crew a speedy recovery and hope they get back to doing what we all love to do ASAP.
I have limited exposure to this type of operation but the point that that a third person providing all that info that 487072 mentions makes a lot of sense to me.
What doesn’t make sense to me is I believe the third guy in this accident weighed over 160kgs. I am sure he is a great guy and probably the best at his job but if that is true that’s pretty much max weight. Not ideal!!
As I said I don’t know if this is true but in the interest of safety I hope there is some good that can come out of this. Perhaps in the future instead of demanding a turbine for safety maybe a power margin amongst other things should be the standard
Anyway Safe skies and get well soon guys
HS

[bangequalsbad]

Like I said...
If the pilot can’t navigate around a pre-briefed and demarcated area, avoiding restricted areas, and taking a tally of animals, then the operation needs reviewing.
It will end up being more expensive (in aircraft charge time) BUT you will have one less person in the bus.

Safety first...right?

Bangers.

[County]

during the BTEC program in northern Australia during the 90’s flying Bell 47’s we as pilots managed all of 487072’s role as well as flying the aircraft and the shooter managed their role very well.
As I said I believe it’s unnecessary and safety compromising addition to the flight. I am giving my opinion based on a lot of experience in single pilot and single shooter culling ops.
If you check BHP SOPs for aerial culling operations you will not find an Observer on board an aircraft.