CPLH endoresment R44 or Bell206

[Mick White]

G'day, Student Pilot on R22, new to this forum. Question for all ! I am going to get endorsed on another aircarft during my training. Bell 206 or R44 ?

[helicopspeeder]

G'day Mick and welcome to the forum and the industry. A quick search of past discussions here will answer many questions you may have as you start your new career.
My answer to your question is R44, no question unless you have lined up a turbine job for your first gig. Unless you are going mustering you are most likely going to spend a fair bit of time flying the R44. An expensive turbine endorsement will do you very little good now. Your first turbine endorsement will come, especially if you are flying for an outfit that operates turbine machines, one day they will need an extra turbine pilot and if they like you you will soon find yourself endorsed.
Best of luck with the new career.
H. speeder

[Mick White]

Thanks for the reply, that makes sense, but if it was about the aircraft rather than employment would you give the same advice?

[bl@ckers]

Mick,

I've tossed up the same question. Did you mean you were planning on undertaking the endoresement as part of the CPL(H) course? If so and if you are doing the 105 hour course, you will need to put in a minimum of 20 hours on the machine. This makes the turbine option very expensive.

Otherwise you will be ok with a 5 hour endorsement after you have your licence... this is a lot cheaper option. Given you have a piston endorsement on the 22 you can get the 44 endorsement in 3 hours. So if you are really keen to get the turbine endorsement and have the cash, for the sake of 3 hours in a 44 I would be doing both. At the end of the day, the more endorsements you have the more employable you are, particularly in this climate.

Blackers.

[Mick White]

That makes a lot of sense thanks Blackers, I was talking about the endorsement as part of the CPH(H) 105 hrs, it does seem like a waste of money and the option you suggested makes a lot more sense. Cheers Mick.

[bl@ckers]

The other way to look at it too Mick, if you get the endorsements following your CPL you will end up with an additional 10 Hours (approx) to your name, which all helps in the race to build hours to become employable. The only disadvantage is the low time on each of the endorsed machines. Thats my thoughts on the subject, others may disagree.

[helicopspeeder]

Mick, this was supposed to be posted after your last question to me but my internet stuffed up and I've only just been able to get it back up.
Absolutely the 44, you are training on the R22 so the R44 is a logical progression in systems, technology, technique etc. I imagine that you currently have your hands and your head full (I don't know where you are in your training) and to add another, completely foreign aircraft system into the mix now which realistically you won't be flying in the immediate future would unnecessarily complicate your training. If you do the turbine endorsement now, then by the time you come to use it you will have forgotten most of it anyway. Also, if you go to an employer and apply for a job with R22 and B206 endorsements you are not going to be of any use to 80% of the helicopter operators in Australia. I know we are back to the employment side of things but no operator will realistically be able or willing to add you to their insurance policy for turbine helicopters until you have around 500-1000 hrs in command. Also, many employers take a dim view of new CPL pilots with turbine endorsements as it often shows that the student hasn't really had to work all that hard to save the money for his/her license. Very few guys or girls have the left over $$ for a turbine endorsement after they spend all their hard earned on a CPL(H). Operators want lean, hungry new pilots and your shiny new CPL with R22 and B206 will not convey the image of a pilot who will work hard to make the operator money, look after the equipment and be willing to wash machines, sweep floors, sell tickets, load helicopters etc.
I know you want to get your hands on the jetbox but it will happen, sooner than you think! Go the R44 or I think you will regret it.
I am sure that by now you will be sick of hearing about "assumption" and where it gets you but in my answers I have made the assumption that you are training for CPL(H) for eventual employment in the industry and not for your own use in your own helicopter. If the latter is the case then by all means go and get the endorsement for the machine you will be flying after you finish your training.
H. speeder

[Mick White]

Thanks fellas , I may have misled you. As far as training goes, only just started solo's and loving it. As far as employment goes, probably too old (46yrs) to start a new career. My engineeering business keeps me employed, but I never say never. This problem all started when my crazy wife bought me a trial introductory flight for a birthday present, now look what happened. The reason for the CPL(H) rather than the PPL(H) is I like to keep my options open and the extra training and knowledge could only possibly make my passsengers safer. The reason for my initial question is due to the enormous amount of disagreement between the "experts" with regards to the R44/B206 debate. Thankyou both for the advice, Cheers Mick.
.

[Kwyjibo]

G'day Mick...

My Two cents worth ( and as you have worked out, opinions will vary immensely) - from what you have explained, - Work towards your PPL(H), and get this done. exams are less time constraining, (theres only 1, as opposed to seven), do your PPL flight test, then do a 44 endorsement. take a couple of friends for a jolly, do the odd flight. Then, if you find yourself addicted, and must pursue a CPL, continue on, study the rest of the theory, complete the rest of the hours, do the CPL flight test. - you are quite correct, in that of course you will be a safer pilot with more comprehensive training, but the 'unknown factor' of will you stick with it? Have you started any of the theory yet? - I have seen a few people in similar situations to yourself, start their CPL, lose interest, and give it away. You are not too old to start a new career. - once again, you may find it slightly more challenging on the study front to 'get back in the groove', but an engineering background would definitely be an advantage. (comprehension of general knowledge, weight and balance, loading, aerody etc) - its probably more a question of fianances if your are employed within our extremely well paid vocation. (not). As for the Jetranger, I dont think you find an operator that will let you private hire their machine ( as a ppl) with anything less that 250 hrs total, due insurance. - so even with a cpl and 107 odd hours, (105 minimum + 2 hr flight test, if you do the last 20 - or is it 30 ? been a while, in the final 30 days of training), otherwise 125 hours, you'd still only be half way to a jetty jolly!! - some schools may let you do the endorsement, for some $$$ to them, but not let you hire, for reasons outlined. ( you'd like to think not though.)

As for employment, it may not have to be a change of career? how bout 6 or 12 months off, once youve got your ticket, rack up a few hundred hours then come back to a paid job, and do some part timing? once again, just a possibility....

Good luck with it Mick, and remember, you'll hear many and varied opinions along the way, ( mine included) may or may not be right, or suitable to your circumstanses, but just keep asking as many people as you can. enjoy the path, it is AWESOME...

Kwyj..

[Mick White]

Crikey's, there are a lot of options. As you have suggested that hire of a jetty may not be possible until 250hrs it sounds like I would be better off paying for the endorsement at that level and have the training fresh and current. As far as the theory goes, I havent done a lot, think I got sucked into this flying caper before I understood how big the task is. Actually had a laugh last night when my CAO, CAR & CAAP arrived in the mail, I thought my AIP was comprehensive, if I saw all the books before I started then I probably would of ditched the idea. At the end of the day, I do love a challenge and the PPL option did cross my mind, but I want to be the best pilot I can be and my family & friends safety is paramount. Thanks for the advice, better have a think about the options. Feel free if anyone can add any more. Cheers Mick

[nymagee]

G'day mick - i really don't care how old you are - flying has given me many years of pleasure and others call it work - I can honestly say that everyday that i get out of bed at 4.45am knowing i have to be in the air by 7.00am i feel great and say YES - 58 and luvin it

[MicN7]

Mate, 46? Barrack Hussein Obama born sometime in 1961 - 48 years of age and not exactly fading away. They're also talking about putting the age of eligibility for national superannuation up AGAIN. We're gonna be working til we're 80 the way it's going. With a steadily ageing workforce, Vietnam Vets retiring in droves (any day now....) taking untold hours of experience out of the industry, and Chinese and Indian civil helicopter registers of only a couple of hundered machines apiece set to blow out to thousands in the next few years... Mate there just might be a need for a few of us new CPLH grey hairs to be poling, pulling and pedalling our ways around the place soon. Good luck buddy. Mic.

[pohm1]

"Vietnam Vets retiring in droves (any day now....) "

Please.........not that old chesnut, I've been hearing it forever!


P1

[MicN7]

pohm1, four maybe five points of encouragement to a bloke I don't even know (and myself for that matter) and I get a whizz up for one point you take exception to, what is that about pal? Would be REALLY interested in your thoughts as a regular contributor to the site, as to what IS happening with those ex Vietnam guys. Are they getting both hips done at once then given a leg up back into the saddle, or are they forming the basis of stem cell research in the US and being cloned? Buggered if I know. If you do mate - share, if you don't I guess that puts me and you on the same LZ. I read your reply (read retort) to my post on another pilot's thread and I'm thinking 'ex C model jockey off a tuna boat who stayed too long' or 'turbine spooling down in front of the hanger on Saturday arvo just as the Rugby finishes - only I guess in your case that would be soccer...'

A slow cooker will tenderise anything given time...

Cheers MicN7

[Ray McCooney]

I agree with Phom1 on this one, the Vietnam Vets have been a major selling point for lots of training schools for years. I was told about them and China coming online in 1997 when I was looking into doing my licence. I know at least 3 who are still flying commercially and I have only ever known those 3 so I guess the others who still want to fly, do but they can't go on for ever. That will make space for the thousands of CPLs who trained on the strength of the Vietnam vets retiring BUT we don't and NEVER will need the thousands of trained but low time Commercial Helicopter pilots here in Australia who are still looking for work. There are some low time positions around but simply not enough work to employ everyone with a licence who is looking for a start.

It looks like some of the training schools might have made a good living out of this myth. Good on them

[FerrariFlyer]

Welcome to the forum Mick! I did my R44 endorsement out of the advice from many that it would more then likely be the type I'd be employed first of all to 'cut my teeth on', so to speak. The only reason I then followed it up with a 206 endorsement, just after my CPL, was because I was told that I was in line for a start if I had it...doing the endorsement was the deal breaker, and the only reason I did it. Had this not have been the case, I had planned to have that money for the 206 endorsement set aside in the bank (and still in my pocket) and it was there if I needed it, however one plan was to work hard for someone for a while and earn the endorsement without having to fork out cash. At the end of the day, you will read various bits of advice from people, along with their experiences that is offered in good faith, and I guess you'll make the right decision for yourself based on your situation and opportunities open to you at the time. I guess most agree that you should exercise caution before handing over money for an endorsement for no good reason.

As for the Vietnam veterans...I had heard the same mantra for many years myself and often wondered where they all were. I have known of three senior 'Nam vets in the last 9-10 years of being in the industry, of which two are well and truly retired and the other I believe retired just recently. I have not been privy to a mass exodus of vets in recent years, not to say this has not been the case, but on face value it would appear to be a well-carried urban myth, if you will. And whilst their departures were certainly sad as they were great guys and pilots alike, they were able to be replaced without too many major problems.

Further to the comment re Pohm1, I will say that he is not an old C model tuna boat pilot/jock who stayed too long. Quite the opposite. He might call soccer 'football', but he's no jock as was suggested. I think he was having a go at the 'vet retiring theory' that has been circulated for many years now, less so the person who returned fire with the jock comments. Perhaps it's a case of hypersensitivity on someone's behalf?

[iceberg]

Hello Mick.

I shouldn't think your age would even be a factor. A lot of companies prefer someone with a mature outlook. The turbine time is expensive and might be worth the expenese even though you are time limited. Here in Canada, ten turbine hours are common with the commercial course and this at least gives a prospective employer a basis to work with. Quite frankly, aviation is expensive and the more experience you bring to the table the better. If you're keen and an able pilot you won't have any problem finding work. The current climate will dissolve and everyone will be happy again soon. Advice, keep your opinions to yourself and let the disatisfied remain just that! There really are a lot of great people in the industry and the reward is worth the effort.

Cheers.

[pohm1]

Vietnam Vets have, like all older pilots, been retiring steadily from aviation for some time, there will not be a sudden exodus of ex-Vietnam pilots. Are those remaining all likely to get together and decide enough's enough on the day? No.

It was not a personal dig at you MicN7, only at this notion that has been the luring line for many a potential flight school student.

I haven't been on a tuna boat, but I have flown a few hours in a C model.........don't hold that against me though.

P1

[MicN7]

Would absolutely give my left nut to do any sort of time in a 500, off a tuna boat too for that matter Pohm1. Sobering enough wondering about these factors in the industry with time, energy money, dreams and money up in the air (or not as the case may be...) thanks for your take on things, and thanks also to Ray for a refreshingly up front viewpoint on how those well established in the industry see things for those looking to find a way in. You are the guys who know and your average optomist can talk himself into anything unless a good dose of reality gets in the way. I take it back with apologies. Mic.

[helicopspeeder]

You'll do just fine............
but don't give your left nut for 500 time, you'll need it for multi-engine time down the track!
H. speeder